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[KitGuru] AMD Radeon RX Vega caught hiding in plain sight - Page 49

post #481 of 664
Quote:
Originally Posted by gamervivek View Post

The effect is hidden because the other card is also struggling to keep up the framerate, as in processing power has become the bigger bottleneck than lack of vram so the difference isn't as pronounced as you'd expect it to be.

A consistent 30 FPS would still subjectively feel much smoother than 25 FPS with dips into the single digits every now and then I'd think.
Quote:
Originally Posted by bigjdubb View Post

I would never go back to having 4gb's of Vram, I never had any issues with my 970's at 1080p but I did have problems with a few games when i switched to 1440p. This is likely due to poor game programing since I could run 4k in most games without any vram issues, but poor programing/optimization is the reality we live in so I will stick with 8gb as the minimum from here on out.

I'm inclined to make a 3.5 GB joke but that ship has sailed ah screw it something something something 3.5 GB something funny hahaha
Edited by magnek - 5/4/17 at 5:40pm
post #482 of 664
Quote:
Originally Posted by gamervivek View Post

One reason could be that the frame rates are too low at 4k so that running out of VRAM and stuttering doesn't make much of a difference. If the cards were able of 60fps at 4k, you'd see more separation.

Maybe AMD's new HBCC would work wonders, and I've posted here during Fury's release that HBM bandwidth can help with lesser memory by swapping out textures quicker than the 8GB Hawaii card, but that remains to be seen.
Not the case at all. If you go through the individual results, Fury X is essentially on par or ahead of the 1070 in all but one game that run at a somewhat playable FPS (>40) at 4K.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lee Patekar View Post

You don't really need more memory until you do, then you regret not having it. I'd rather splurge for extra vram just in case a game or mod may require the extra space down the road. I'd rather upgrade on my own timetable instead of feeling forced into it.

But that's just my uninformed opinion on VRAM :^)
I've been stuck on a 6950 for a while, but 2 GB hasn't been a limiter for me. I think there's currently only two cards that have a real danger of having issues with VRAM, the 1050 ti 2GB and 1060 3GB. If those had even one gigabyte more they would have been completely fine, but a twice as fast GPU than mine with the same amount of memory is a bit iffy.
Quote:
Originally Posted by rluker5 View Post

I have the same opinion. But I know not everyone else does from the sales of cards with less than the most. This little fuss was about whether it would be bad for the lowest Vega variants to have 4GB hbm btw. Personally, I still think they would be decent cards.
It'd have it's place if it were cheap enough. If the memory management will be able to stretch to ~5GB on other cards it should be fine for the next three-four years or so. It won't be a choice for maxed out 4k though.
post #483 of 664
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hardware Hoshi View Post

To 1. "Devs know it all?"
You meant the same devs that thought 4Gb would be a good idea with Fiji cards?
FYI - devs have nothing to say when it comes to economical decisions. That is entirely in the ballpark of the bean counters.

To 2. "HBCC"

If we should have learned something within the last 20-30 years, it's that caches are no permanent solution. Even if they work, the do only for a short time until you need to get bigger cache or just another cache-layer on top of the first one. To rely on such tricks shows AMD is really desperate for compensation with low HBM capacities.

To 3. "????"

Don't get your point. The only Nvidia card with 5760 CUDA-cores I know is the Titan Z with 12GB. You will never run into VRAM limitation with that. rawpower is another topic, not entirely related to the topic. Your 3+3GB could be a 1060? I say 6GB are just fine for mid-range graphics cards. That amount is barely acceptable, but in the high-end it has to be 8-12GB. Future games will not demand less.
1. No, I meant game developers that announce the minimum and recommended ram requirements haven't been keeping up on their games as well as you have since all of them except those behind ROTR seem to think 4GB is fine for recommended settings. Not max settings, the sky is the limit on those.
2. Vega's HBCC is new and supposedly pretty fancy and they can do neat stuff like get by on around half of the ram of typical gddr5, have some 512TB address space, read and write a the same time, and use their cache while at the same time increase minimum fps. Here's a quick summary of some of it: https://www.techpowerup.com/231093/amd-vega-high-bandwidth-cache-controller-improves-minimum-and-average-fps
3. My sig rig is sli 780tis. Due to the nature of afr they have effectively 3GB ram at twice the bandwith between the two of them, ,so basically 5760 cuda cores with 3GB vram.

Yes I want more vram. But a cut down Vega can get by on 4GB and still be ok. Especially if it is cheap for its performance. I wouldn't buy it. I have been just itching at spending a similar amount as my sli 780tis were on some new graphics cards. But many would appreciate a performance bargain. If AMD charges too much then they won't sell.
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post #484 of 664
Wasn't the cards suppose to come out in May?

Not even a descent rumor or a leak thus far?!? Normally, we get little gems a couple of months before any launch and that has not happened yet.

What is going on AMD?
 
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post #485 of 664
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gunderman456 View Post

Wasn't the cards suppose to come out in May?

Not even a descent rumor or a leak thus far?!? Normally, we get little gems a couple of months before launch and that has not happened yet.

What is going on AMD?
It's like that drum ad, there is a mountain of them in some warehouse in Detroit or somewhere and they will sell them circus style sometime in 1h 2017. rolleyes.gif
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post #486 of 664
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hardware Hoshi View Post

A very bold statement. We said that at Fury / Fury X launcht too. It wasn't true back then and is not now. Games get more demanding as we speak. Part of this is driven by the consoles with 6+ GB, growing each generation. In the future 4GB will not even be enough for 1080p mid- to high-settings. Once HDR and other stuff goes mainstream you need tons of ressources on your GPU / CPU system. 1440p is known to be more demanding for VRAM and GPU rawpower. The textures get bigger / better and the screen has to render more details at once. Especially open-world games suffer here.

Fury X user here and I normally see 2-3GB of usage in any game with my 3440x1440 resolution. Rise of the Tomb Raider is one of the few games that will surpass 4GB of usage when selecting Ultra texture quality (TQ), although the game does warn you that Ultra TQ does require more than 4GB of VRAM. This is because Ultra TQ uses 4K res textures instead of 1440p, so the memory usage is pretty high. I can literally max every other setting aside from texture quality and there's almost no significant visual difference between the Very High and Ultra setting, with Very High TQ maxing out at around 3GB VRAM usage.

At the moment, 1080p still caps at 1-2GB VRAM since that's where the market is at. 1080p going to 4GB+ VRAM usage would probably take another 4-5 years and if you expect any less, that's too much OCN mentality.

That said, I wouldn't expect any high-end GPU to have 4GB at this generation. If Vega were to come out with a 4GB-variant, I doubt many high-end users with 1440p 120Hz, Ultrawide 1440p, or 4K monitors would buy it. I can see higher mainstream users stretching out their budget for 1080p 144Hz+ or 1440p 60Hz, although it's going to be overkill for your typical 1080p 60HZ user. We have to keep in mind that only 4-5% of gamers go past 1080p 60Hz and there's nothing showing that 1440p is becoming mainstream any time soon.
    
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post #487 of 664
Quote:
Originally Posted by rluker5 View Post

1. No, I meant game developers that announce the minimum and recommended ram requirements haven't been keeping up on their games as well as you have since all of them except those behind ROTR seem to think 4GB is fine for recommended settings. Not max settings, the sky is the limit on those.

So, now we went down the rabbit hole and declare buying a card with at least $400-700 while we reduce the settings by default?
What person in their right mind would do this instead of buying a 1070/1080 instead without such restrictions?

Quote:
Originally Posted by rluker5 View Post

2. Vega's HBCC is new and supposedly pretty fancy and they can do neat stuff like get by on around half of the ram of typical gddr5, have some 512TB address space, read and write a the same time, and use their cache while at the same time increase minimum fps. Here's a quick summary of some of it: https://www.techpowerup.com/231093/amd-vega-high-bandwidth-cache-controller-improves-minimum-and-average-fps

I see, you were fooled by the marekting promises. Haven't you thought about where thos 512TB come from? Your system RAM, your HDD / SDD or whatever memory you have installed. Vega practically steals ressources it shouldn't use in the first place. All this just because AMD is so high on riding the HBM only train, yet it limited by its memory capacity.

Those improvements you speaka bout have a catch too: HBCC needs optimization by the game develoers. Means it either doesn't work at all in some games, or will only be fully capable in special for AMD optimized titles. Great, Vega will be all over the place like Fiji again. Too bad many gamers prefer constant performance, not guesswork where it will land each time and title.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rluker5 View Post

3. My sig rig is sli 780tis. Due to the nature of afr they have effectively 3GB ram at twice the bandwith between the two of them, ,so basically 5760 cuda cores with 3GB vram.

SLI doesn't work that way. Both cards have to share the bus and bandwidth. The result is rarely +100%. Having micro stutters in mGPU setups is a NO-Go. A powerful single-GPU with high amounts of VRAM is always better than such a solution.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rluker5 View Post

Yes I want more vram. But a cut down Vega can get by on 4GB and still be ok. Especially if it is cheap for its performance. I wouldn't buy it. I have been just itching at spending a similar amount as my sli 780tis were on some new graphics cards. But many would appreciate a performance bargain. If AMD charges too much then they won't sell.

Fiji was DOA with its 4GB limit and AIO attached. Going from your 3GB SLI setup to some 4GB Vega would be foolish. But hey, it's your money. I wonder if AMD will sell such products at all. If this is another "us-too" attempt, it has failed by definition. Repeated for the 1000th time, HBM will not be cheap. IN case really does try it, they will suffer terrible losses again.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gunderman456 View Post

Wasn't the cards suppose to come out in May?

Not even a descent rumor or a leak thus far?!? Normally, we get little gems a couple of months before any launch and that has not happened yet.

What is going on AMD?

1st half of 2017 was promised. That usually means the latest possible date like Ryzen launched. Guess it could land at the end of June as a paperlaunch and then slowly drivle into the market as many weeks pass by. Don't expect high quantity because HBM assembly process is still far ways from mass-prodcution standards. In the worst case the vendors will gauge the prices again to counter the low availability. Wouldn't be the first launch AMD handles like this.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rluker5 View Post

It's like that drum ad, there is a mountain of them in some warehouse in Detroit or somewhere and they will sell them circus style sometime in 1h 2017. rolleyes.gif

I seriously never understood this warehouse Ad AMD showed. Aside from the usual cringe factor, their marketing is making less and less sense. Some jokes going around such message suggerate "hey, we still live. Don't forget about us!"

Playing guessing games with the customer has seldom helped a company to sell. Those who are interested in buysing GPUs either do it or boycott the charades.
post #488 of 664
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hardware Hoshi View Post

So, now we went down the rabbit hole and declare buying a card with at least $400-700 while we reduce the settings by default?
What person in their right mind would do this instead of buying a 1070/1080 instead without such restrictions?
I see, you were fooled by the marekting promises. Haven't you thought about where thos 512TB come from? Your system RAM, your HDD / SDD or whatever memory you have installed. Vega practically steals ressources it shouldn't use in the first place. All this just because AMD is so high on riding the HBM only train, yet it limited by its memory capacity.

Those improvements you speaka bout have a catch too: HBCC needs optimization by the game develoers. Means it either doesn't work at all in some games, or will only be fully capable in special for AMD optimized titles. Great, Vega will be all over the place like Fiji again. Too bad many gamers prefer constant performance, not guesswork where it will land each time and title.
SLI doesn't work that way. Both cards have to share the bus and bandwidth. The result is rarely +100%. Having micro stutters in mGPU setups is a NO-Go. A powerful single-GPU with high amounts of VRAM is always better than such a solution.
Fiji was DOA with its 4GB limit and AIO attached. Going from your 3GB SLI setup to some 4GB Vega would be foolish. But hey, it's your money. I wonder if AMD will sell such products at all. If this is another "us-too" attempt, it has failed by definition. Repeated for the 1000th time, HBM will not be cheap. IN case really does try it, they will suffer terrible losses again.
1st half of 2017 was promised. That usually means the latest possible date like Ryzen launched. Guess it could land at the end of June as a paperlaunch and then slowly drivle into the market as many weeks pass by. Don't expect high quantity because HBM assembly process is still far ways from mass-prodcution standards. In the worst case the vendors will gauge the prices again to counter the low availability. Wouldn't be the first launch AMD handles like this.
I seriously never understood this warehouse Ad AMD showed. Aside from the usual cringe factor, their marketing is making less and less sense. Some jokes going around such message suggerate "hey, we still live. Don't forget about us!"

Playing guessing games with the customer has seldom helped a company to sell. Those who are interested in buysing GPUs either do it or boycott the charades.
This started with your: "Who in their right mind would buy a 4GB card in 2017?
HBM has proven to be doomed with low memory capacity. Even the HBCC crap will not save this fact. If memory is full, it is full. Period!"

Games don't have to be optimized for hbcc to reduce vram allocation. That Deus Ex demo they had was on a game made before Vega has been released and has had no optimization for hbcc.

I will try again, using smaller words. If a little baby Vega with a cute little price gets a sweet little pudding of 4 GB vram it is ok. It doesn't mean big daddy AIO 2x8 pin Vega will have 4 GB vram too.

If you don't like it, get an end of arch 1080 that will be like the 3 GB 580 is now by the time that baby Vega with 4GB HBM2 with hbcc stops being relevant in games. That is, unless you think that Nvidia's arch changes over the next few years will be less than that of Kepler to Maxwell. Then it will be like a 4GB 680.
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post #489 of 664
Quote:
Originally Posted by rluker5 View Post

This started with your: "Who in their right mind would buy a 4GB card in 2017?
HBM has proven to be doomed with low memory capacity. Even the HBCC crap will not save this fact. If memory is full, it is full. Period!"
+

Nice of you to quote me. So I don't have to repeat myself! thumb.gif

Quote:
Originally Posted by rluker5 View Post

Games don't have to be optimized for hbcc to reduce vram allocation. That Deus Ex demo they had was on a game made before Vega has been released and has had no optimization for hbcc.

Ready about th truth. of course games need optimization for HBCC. This has been discussed on several places.

Sure, believe what AMD and their house-studio for "gaming evovled" Deus Ex - MD ...! AMD already admitted you need optimization for this cache-story has to work.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rluker5 View Post

I will try again, using smaller words. If a little baby Vega with a cute little price gets a sweet little pudding of 4 GB vram it is ok. It doesn't mean big daddy AIO 2x8 pin Vega will have 4 GB vram too.

How overblown for someone like you denying reality. What goes on in your mind? Do you think the same chip can be cut down without any costs? Makes no sense to waste good silicon + interposer assembly on something not sellable by the market. AMd would have to sell this 4GB card for $200-300 for it to be acceptable. That is as cheap as Polaris is right now. Do you seriously thinks this will happen?

A price of 300+ is already a fail because it is too close to the GTX1070. Nvidia would just drop prices a bit and AMD would look like a foo. The power consumption is still unclear, but AMD has not beaten Nvidia there either in the recent past.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rluker5 View Post

If you don't like it, get an end of arch 1080 that will be like the 3 GB 580 is now by the time that baby Vega with 4GB HBM2 with hbcc stops being relevant in games. That is, unless you think that Nvidia's arch changes over the next few years will be less than that of Kepler to Maxwell. Then it will be like a 4GB 680.

Funny you say end of arch, but its Ok if AMD is somewhere near this EOL card in performance / price? Double-standards here we come.

I bet you will be one of those fanboys praising HBCC in ever thread. If you did not see Volga is coming within a few quarters. And potentially GDDR6 is coming soon too. Crippling Vega with 4GB HBM2 would only make matters worse. I don't even why this is discussible to talk to someone bringing up stuff like a 680 from 2012. Ironically all the AMD fans would argue completely opposite as you do with your HBCC warship.
post #490 of 664
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lee Patekar View Post

You don't really need more memory until you do, then you regret not having it. I'd rather splurge for extra vram just in case a game or mod may require the extra space down the road. I'd rather upgrade on my own timetable instead of feeling forced into it.

But that's just my uninformed opinion on VRAM :^)

The 6GB of memory on my OG Titans is the only reason I'm still able to rock them now, four years later, in all my games at my resolution (1440p). Had I gone with 780Ti's when they came out I'd be SOL right now...
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