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[KitGuru] AMD Radeon RX Vega caught hiding in plain sight - Page 8

post #71 of 664

Yeah, that is pretty much the image this article is projecting (give or take 5%).

 

AMD's design has always been about efficient, smaller/dumber cores over power hungry, stronger cores, but it seems GCN has hit a bottleneck that does not really benefit from this strategy. It still shines in more trivial tasks like mining and games are adapting to this since all relevant consoles have GCN based graphics inside, but it doesn't seem to be as efficient (definitely not for HPC). The Fermi based arch seems to have a decisive design lead here although it's much closer than in the TeraScale era.

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post #72 of 664
Quote:
Originally Posted by magnek View Post

Well at least we're UNDERhyping now, which IMO is a good thing, because worst case scenario Vega performs exactly as expected and nobody ends up massively disappointed.

Anything less than 1080Ti is a massive disappointment regardless of hype. This is what we expect from the chip's size and the brand new tech it carries. No sugarcoating it, if it doesn't at least match GP102, it fails.
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post #73 of 664
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kuivamaa View Post


Anything less than 1080Ti is a massive disappointment regardless of hype. This is what we expect from the chip's size and the brand new tech it carries. No sugarcoating it, if it doesn't at least match GP102, it fails.


​Price is still a pretty big factor. If it's $500 and say within 5% of a 1080 Ti, I would consider it very successful tbh. GP104 performance ~5-6 months in 2017 is a fail IMO.

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post #74 of 664
Quote:
Originally Posted by CynicalUnicorn View Post

Well... Vega and Fiji both have 4096 cores. A Fury X runs at 1GHz while Vega hits 1.2GHz boost. Polaris is about 15% faster per core per clock than 28nm GCN. TPU has overall benchmarks for the reference 1080Ti and some older cards here: https://www.techpowerup.com/reviews/NVIDIA/GeForce_GTX_1080_Ti/30.html

A Fury X is 60% as fast as a 1080Ti. Vega therefore should be (0.6)(1.2)(1.15) = 83% as fast, putting it right around a reference 1080.

I don't think Vega will be competing with Nvidia's high-end, unfortunately, but it should do as well as or maybe a bit better than GP104. I think AMD's biggest issues right now are clockspeeds. Their 14nm chips just aren't hitting high enough frequencies to really be competitive, while Pascal is near 2GHz easily.

I find this very hard to believe. We all know how cash strapped AMD is, how they put everything behind Ryzen and so on, but it's also true that Vega won't be just upscaled Polaris; from the tech previews we've read that would be beyond an oversimplification, it would be outright wrong. Where are these tech publications putting the role of the tile based renderer, for example?

If all AMD had to do was upscale Polaris and clock it to 1.2 Ghz they could have done it a long time ago; the power envelope and the clocks were there; they could have made a card that used 100w more than the RX 480 already, with a 384-bit bus using 8 Ghz GDDR5 and accomplished pretty much the same thing, a card slightly slower or around the performance of the 1080.

If that is what we are getting after all this time, after the "Poor Volta" teaser and after the comments about its performance being "really nice" compared to the 1080 Ti and the Titan Xp, then Vega would be the disappointment of the year. Especially as I don't see any way for them to recoup any money when using 8 GB of HBM2 on a card that would necessarily have to be priced at around $400, $450 max.
Edited by tpi2007 - 4/29/17 at 2:48pm
 
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post #75 of 664
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kuivamaa View Post

Anything less than 1080Ti is a massive disappointment regardless of hype. This is what we expect from the chip's size and the brand new tech it carries. No sugarcoating it, if it doesn't at least match GP102, it fails.
I would still buy 2, unless the price is over $800. Would like to upgrade and don't want to buy an end of arch product from a company whos products rely so heavily on software that always favors the current product being sold. Vega arch should be around for a while.
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post #76 of 664
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yttrium View Post

I dont understand how you got to the 980GB/s number for vega.

And your own numbers for 'effective bandwidth' are wrong (effective bandwidth is rather disingenous for enthousiast but I'll get to that ) your own link states that the 1080 has 1.7 greater 'effective bandwidth' compared to a 980 without any compression, something the 980 has but is not taking into account by Nvidia in this slide. the actual benefit from compression is 1.2 as stated in the slide and as stated by the reviewer. "NVIDIA pegs the effective increase in memory bandwidth from delta color compression alone at 20%. The difference is of course per-game, as the effectiveness of the tech depends on how well a game sticks to patterns"

which means the 1080's 380GB/s has 380*1.2 = 456GB/s

Then you talk about the 1080 Ti and a factor of 2.5 for compression, If you could elaborate more on this that would be great.

PS, on the same page it mentions bandwith over GPU power is getting lower over generations, how would it be bad if Vega follows that trend?

Why don't you read the article again about delta color compression...

The 2.5X of Pascal is based on no compression. It's 1.2x the benefit of Maxwell (GTX 980/GTX 980 Ti).

The GTX 1080 has 256-bit memory interface operating at a 10Gbps = 320GB/sec for reference cards. 320GB/s x 2.5 = 800 GB/s when there is DCC involved (such as graphics).

The GTX 1080 has 1.4X the raw bandwidth (i.e. no compression) from going to 10GBps instead of 7 Gbps GDDR5x.

The GTX 1080 Ti uses 11Gbps GDDR5X on a 352-bit memory bus = 484 GB/s , with 2.5X color compression = 1,210GB/s

To obtain 1,210GB/s with VEGA assuming Polaris level 1.3X DCC , you need ~ 930GB/s.

This DCC doesn't apply to compute workloads.

If you recall Tahiti HD 7970 / R9 280X transitioned from 384-bit to 256-bit on Tonga (R9 285) by using delta color compression.


http://www.anandtech.com/show/8460/amd-radeon-r9-285-review/3
Quote:
Originally Posted by CynicalUnicorn View Post

Well... Vega and Fiji both have 4096 cores. A Fury X runs at 1GHz while Vega hits 1.2GHz boost. Polaris is about 15% faster per core per clock than 28nm GCN. TPU has overall benchmarks for the reference 1080Ti and some older cards here: https://www.techpowerup.com/reviews/NVIDIA/GeForce_GTX_1080_Ti/30.html

A Fury X is 60% as fast as a 1080Ti. Vega therefore should be (0.6)(1.2)(1.15) = 83% as fast, putting it right around a reference 1080.

I don't think Vega will be competing with Nvidia's high-end, unfortunately, but it should do as well as or maybe a bit better than GP104. I think AMD's biggest issues right now are clockspeeds. Their 14nm chips just aren't hitting high enough frequencies to really be competitive, while Pascal is near 2GHz easily.

It's all about price though. A GTX 1080 Ti runs $700 , a GTX 1080 runs $500 or so typically.

If they can compete with the GTX 1080 and be slightly behind the GTX 1080 Ti but offer the card at say $400-450 they'd get many more sales than offering better than GTX 1080-level performance for $550-650.

The flagship must be faster than the GTX 1080, however. It's much too late for any full die card to compete with a <$350 GTX 1070 while still making AMD decent money.

Whatever the cut down flagship is, assuming the same ratio as the R9 Fury vs R9 Fury X it would be 3584 shaders ; this would likely be the card competing with the GTX 1070 and possibly the GTX 1080. I figure without any major improvements ~ 3500 shaders @ 1200MHz should be able to compete with the GTX 1070 so I'm cautiously optimistic (The shader increase from GTX 1060 6GB to GTX 1070 is +50% ; +100% from GTX 1060 6GB to GTX 1080). I hope that without pushing the voltage to astronomical levels that it would be at least 1300MHz base clock though.
Edited by AlphaC - 4/29/17 at 4:01pm
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post #77 of 664
Quote:
Originally Posted by mcg75 View Post

Seems someone managed to get a fake entry into the TPU database.
This.
post #78 of 664
Quote:
Originally Posted by ToTheSun! View Post

WOOO!

Now I'm hyped about the underhype.
Well played.
post #79 of 664
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tojara View Post

Multi-GPU is in a terrible spot when AAA development is becoming more and more of an mess. For it to work properly you need a good engine and either a very technically skilled development team or a lot of support from the GPU vendor(s). It's not surprise that most games don't have that when many don't function properly at launch even with a single GPU.
What's not surprising is that multi-GPU support has become so weak because Nvidia alone occupies the high end, incentivizing developers to not support multiple GPUs so Nvidia's highest-margin GPUs will sell better.
post #80 of 664
If Vega comes out equal to GTX 1080, AMD have failed bigtime.
It will be 2 freaking years after GTX 1080 was released and they only now come out with something competitive to that?

Slap on HBM2 and hope that is enough for sales?
AMD should sell their GPU IPs to a company that wants to compete for the sake of their customers if true.

This is BS. Better be fake
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