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[Sponsored] Roccat Kone Pure Owl-Eye Gaming Mouse Review - by Ino - Page 9

post #81 of 160
I don't want to derail this thread but I have a few follow-up questions. If there's a better place then point me to it.

What is the difference in cpi between a mouse with fresh mouse feet and one with feet that are completely worn out?
What is the biggest/usual difference in cpi you measured when switching mousepads?
If the difference is negligible then it's still rational to want a mouse with accurate cpi steps.

What is so difficult about attaching a lens to a sensor that no mouse manufacturer can get it right?
post #82 of 160
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1conoclast View Post

I don't want to derail this thread but I have a few follow-up questions. If there's a better place then point me to it.

What is the difference in cpi between a mouse with fresh mouse feet and one with feet that are completely worn out?
What is the biggest/usual difference in cpi you measured when switching mousepads?
If the difference is negligible then it's still rational to want a mouse with accurate cpi steps.

What is so difficult about attaching a lens to a sensor that no mouse manufacturer can get it right?

The distance between the lens and the pad affects the CPI. It changes by about 1% per 0.1mm according to the 3360 data sheet. Feet can wear down probably a couple 1/10ths of a mm so wear on feet can cause a couple % change. Some aftermarket feet are thicker and can wear down more causing both a change when you put the feet on and more room for change over time. Page 17 on http://www.pixart.com.tw/upload/PMS0058-PMW3360DM-T2QU-NNDS-R1.30-06042016_20160902201411.pdf shows some tests on different pads of CPI vs sensor height. The lens is supposed to be 2.4mm above the pad I think so an changes from that height cause differences.
Edited by chr1spe - 5/2/17 at 10:03am
post #83 of 160
It would seem then, that to achieve constant cpi forever, I would need to buy a hard glass pad like frostpad (which supposedly doesn't wear) and remove mouse feet and play on the plastic underside (assuming that it won't wear).
post #84 of 160
Quote:
Originally Posted by chr1spe View Post

The distance between the lens and the pad affects the CPI. It changes by about 1% per 0.1mm according to the 3360 data sheet. Feet can wear down probably a couple 1/10ths of a mm so wear on feet can cause a couple % change. Some aftermarket feet are thicker and can wear down more causing both a change when you put the feet on and more room for change over time. Page 17 on http://www.pixart.com.tw/upload/PMS0058-PMW3360DM-T2QU-NNDS-R1.30-06042016_20160902201411.pdf shows some tests on different pads of CPI vs sensor height. The lens is supposed to be 2.4mm above the pad I think so an changes from that height cause differences.



That's cool how Logitech's pad has the flattest line. How did they make it I wonder..

How does surface tuning affect it, though? Would the declared CPI always be closer to the actual when the sensor is tuned vs. not tuned?

On a side note, I can't imagine using a Razer Vespula after seeing that lol.
Edited by Avalar - 5/2/17 at 1:56pm
    
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post #85 of 160
From my experience higher lod = higher CPi value from stated

Opposite for lower. I put on thicker skates and the mouse felt less responsive until lod was raised

Would that be a correct explanation of it?
post #86 of 160
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1conoclast View Post

It would seem then, that to achieve constant cpi forever, I would need to buy a hard glass pad like frostpad (which supposedly doesn't wear) and remove mouse feet and play on the plastic underside (assuming that it won't wear).

haha, no you don't want to do that.

also, i'm not so sure that glass does not wear. my tempered pad clearly shows to have changed in the center when it's wet (when i clean it).
the glide/friction seems unaffected however thumb.gif
Edited by Bucake - 5/3/17 at 12:24am
post #87 of 160
Hey Ino, we have the same sized hands, looking at the measurements and that outline you drew on your older reviews. What mouse would you recommend for a fingertip grip, where the butt of the mouse gets tucked below the knuckles of the ring and pinky finger during fine aim, recoil control etc. I use a cm/360 of 47.5cm (90 FOV 4:3 base/106.26 FOV 16:9 base). I am currently using the G900, although the size seems okay, I think the shape isn't the best for me. My ring and pinky finger often scrub the mouse pad and I would rather not have my fingertips making any contact with the pad.
post #88 of 160
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1conoclast View Post

It would seem then, that to achieve constant cpi forever, I would need to buy a hard glass pad like frostpad (which supposedly doesn't wear) and remove mouse feet and play on the plastic underside (assuming that it won't wear).

The result of that would be much more detrimental to using the mouse than getting accustomed to minimal deviations from proclaimed CPI values.
CPI is determined by the surface itself, the distance of the sensor from the surface and probably also by the refraction of the lens. All of those have tolerances so you will never be able to get a 100% accurate replication. Just look at common tolerance ranges for injection molded plastic parts.
The only reason I test this at all is because of the behavior the mionix Naos 7000 showed where CPI levels >4500 were actually declining instead of increasing. At 7000 CPI it really had ~4300 CPI. Or something like that. And as long as it's below 5% deviation from nominal value it's fine in general. Logitech seems to be most consistent at this, but the results here are also very good.
It's not like Zowie where 400 CPI is 365-370 in reality.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Drimzi View Post

Hey Ino, we have the same sized hands, looking at the measurements and that outline you drew on your older reviews. What mouse would you recommend for a fingertip grip, where the butt of the mouse gets tucked below the knuckles of the ring and pinky finger during fine aim, recoil control etc. I use a cm/360 of 47.5cm (90 FOV 4:3 base/106.26 FOV 16:9 base). I am currently using the G900, although the size seems okay, I think the shape isn't the best for me. My ring and pinky finger often scrub the mouse pad and I would rather not have my fingertips making any contact with the pad.

I'm not sure if I understand your grip correctly, can you show me a picture? I would guess that some smaller ambidextrous mouse would fit that criteria. How do you feel with typical office mice in terms of shape?
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post #89 of 160
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1conoclast View Post

I've been looking for a new mouse for a while now and after trying g403 and discovering that even computer peripherals are getting triggered too easily these days, kone pure is the next mouse I could potentially try. But first, I have a few questions that I would like a Roccat representative to answer.

1. I'd like to renew a question from the other thread which went unanswered. Why didn't you put a skate around the sensor? In the PMW3360 Product Datasheet, it says the following: "Note: Mouse feet should be placed close to the opening to stabilize the surface within the FOV of the sensor." Why do you think your mouse doesn't need one? Did you test it on both hard and soft mousepads? Does it work equally well on both? I like to buy the mouse and mousepad from the same manufacturer for optimum compatibility and prefer big soft pads like Taito King but now I'm wondering if maybe I should get a hard pad. As far as I know, you don't make hard pads.

2. Do the actual cpi values really deviate from the driver settings? From what I've seen on Ino's youtube channel, he's measuring method is imprecise. He cannot reproduce the results reliably. He does 3 measurements and then takes the average. I like to measure and set my sensitivity to a single millimeter and a 2% deviation with a sensitivity of 50cm/360 would result in 51cm/360 in reality. That is far from "perfectly fine" and "unrelenting precision" and more like "meh, close enough" precision.
Buying an expensive product and having to **** around with rulers right off the bat is rather off-putting. If the values deviate, are they always 2% higher or can they be 2% lower and anywhere in between? I'd like to know what I'm getting myself into if I decide to buy the mouse.

3. A question to anyone with the mouse: Did you test it in intense gameplay that requires a lot of lifting and recentering the mouse on your mousepad? Do little shocks to the mouse cause misclicks? (this should probably become a standard test nowadays if there's a fashion for such sensitive buttons)

1. Yes we did test it on hard and soft mousepads. It works perfectly fine with both. So the Taito or any cloth mousepad should not create a problem. And we do have hard pads (Alumic).

2. This got answered by the others.

3. You can smash the mouse on the table and it will not click. So don't worry, you will not throw an Overwatch tournament with this wink.gif
post #90 of 160
Quote:
Originally Posted by ROCCATstudios View Post

So don't worry, you will not throw an Overwatch tournament with this wink.gif
You, i like you! biggrin.gif
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