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[WCCF] Tech Secrets Of NVIDIA & AMD GPU Manufacturer TSMC Stolen – Former Engineer Arrested In China - Page 2

post #11 of 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mad Pistol View Post

The only good news is that the top tier manufacturers have moved on from 28nm and are now @ 16nm or smaller. Everything being copied would be a design that has been on the market for several years.

The problem is with future developments; this will give any tech company/foundry with this data a significant head start on developing their own tech if they wish to do so. That could be dangerous for established leaders such as AMD and Nvidia, which have poured millions or billions of dollars into research to develop these technologies.

Don't get me wrong... I am all for competition, but when a company has intellectual property that has been developed from the ground up, it's their property. If another company wants to compete, they need to do it with their own unique products, not some copy of another.

Don't confuse having a patent and hold eternal right of a thing.
Because from your point of view, if i would build now a lighter i should start with two pieces of stones.

Hopefully you can't patent the science itself, you could try to patent an electron.
So process that were unthinkable at the time are now common, should you still get right on these over an infinite time?
We can't start always from 2000 years scratch, so patent should have a defined time.
Thus removing the leadership of some, allowing others to get a better idea about how to use the process you engineered.
From my scientific view patent killed and slowed the research, putting now the science as a way to make money. So i don't feel is right for a single to own eternally a process that came from science itself.
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post #12 of 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wimpzilla View Post

Don't confuse having a patent and hold eternal right of a thing.
Because from your point of view, if i would build now a lighter i should start with two pieces of stones.

Hopefully you can't patent the science itself, you could try to patent an electron.
So process that were unthinkable at the time are now common, should you still get right on these over an infinite time?
We can't start always from 2000 years scratch, so patent should have a defined time.
Thus removing the leadership of some, allowing others to get a better idea about how to use the process you engineered.
From my scientific view patent killed and slowed the research, putting now the science as a way to make money. So i don't feel is right for a single to own eternally a process that came from science itself.

I, too, do not think that someone should "own" a technological process. They do, however, have the rights to own the design, especially if they developed it.

If they choose to license that design, that's their decision. However, when you discover something that can make money for yourself or your company, you want to keep it and hold it close. Don't confuse intellectual property with scientific achievement. You can have one and not the other.

A way of manufacturing transistors is intellectual property, while the idea of a transistor is not.
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post #13 of 50
reverse engineering happens all the time in China
why be the middle-man when you're proficient at making the chips yourself?
watch the Wired's documentary on the beast that is Shenzhen.

I'm sure TSMC/Nvidia will come down hard on copy-cats even if it's dated 28nm tech.
     
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post #14 of 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mad Pistol View Post

I, too, do not think that someone should "own" a technological process. They do, however, have the rights to own the design, especially if they developed it.

If they choose to license that design, that's their decision. However, when you discover something that can make money for yourself or your company, you want to keep it and hold it close. Don't confuse intellectual property with scientific achievement. You can have one and not the other.

A way of manufacturing transistors is intellectual property, while the idea of a transistor is not.

Well, to be fair and it is my scientist opinion.

Even how to manufacture a transistor came out and follow physics/chemistry rules, that are general rules of matter.
The R&D thing is misleading, there is almost no research in companies, only development. The only research is aimed only on what company need and not as wide field research to explain stuff.
So what scientist discover as fundamental rules, is semiconductors propriety and were applied to build a transistor.
However if a company hold the ONLY BEST ACTUAL physical way to manufacture a transistor, there is no space for others.
The others need to wait someone researched another matter peculiarity that could be applied to build the transistor in this another way.
So others can't go forward due to patent, the patent holder continue is R&D, leading to market leader and no competition, for the sake of money.

So unlimited patent kill everything in the name the intellectual propriety that derived from the scientific achievement, surely not coming from the company.

So i agree with the patenting, with a limit of time and also depending witch use the patented object is for.

As you can see i would take a think that i know, biological stuff. Unlimited patent an drug lead only a few to use this drug.
Why the rest of the world should die in name of the $, from a scientific discovery that was made and permitted the intellectual propriety of the drug.

Patenting aimed one thing when Einstein was working at, now patenting do not have the same role nowadays!
Edited by Wimpzilla - 5/4/17 at 11:44am
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post #15 of 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by CasualCat View Post

So what does this mean ultimately?

Article says this:
But a direct copy of Apple's, Qualcomm's, AMD's or Nvidia's processors seems like (at least to me) it'd be pretty easy for them to squash in court if anyone started offering them.
Yeah but the Asian market is far bigger than US and good luck stopping them in China tongue.gif Sure they may not be able to export to US, but who cares when the lower income part of the world that will buy this stolen stuff is so much bigger.
It's why some companies won't manufacture in Asia, stuff always gets stolen and replicated.
post #16 of 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wimpzilla View Post

Well, to be fair and it is my scientist opinion.

Even how to manufacture a transistor came out and follow physics/chemistry rules, that are general rules of matter.
The R&D thing is misleading, there is almost no research in companies, only development. The only research is aimed only on what company need and not as wide field research to explain stuff.
So what scientist discover as fundamental rules, is semiconductors propriety and were applied to build a transistor.
However if a company hold the ONLY BEST ACTUAL physical way to manufacture a transistor, there is no space for others.
The others need to wait someone researched another matter peculiarity that could be applied to build the transistor in this another way.
So others can't go forward due to patent, the patent holder continue is R&D, leading to market leader and no competition, for the sake of money.

So unlimited patent kill everything in the name the intellectual propriety that derived from the scientific achievement, surely not coming from the company.

So i agree with the patenting, with a limit of time and also depending witch use the patented object is for.

As you can see i would take a think that i know, biological stuff. Unlimited patent an drug lead only a few to use this drug.
Why the rest of the world should die in name of the $, from a scientific discovery that was made and permitted the intellectual propriety of the drug.

Patenting aimed one thing when Einstein was working at, now patenting do not have the same role nowadays!

Patents aren't indefinite...

That's also a pretty sweeping and naive statement that companies do no research.

Why would Nvida, AMD, TMSC, Intel, et al pump millions of dollars into R&D if someone else can come along and just take the idea without spending that money and produce it? What is the incentive for R&D? Plus I'd hardly put processor design into the same category drug manufacturing. That's a poor appeal to emotion. No one needs a GTX1080Ti...
Edited by CasualCat - 5/4/17 at 12:33pm
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post #17 of 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by CasualCat View Post

Patents aren't indefinite...

That's also a pretty sweeping and naive statement that companies do no research.

Why would Nvida, AMD, TMSC, et al pump millions of dollars into R&D if someone else can come along and just take the idea without spending that money and produce it? What is the incentive for R&D? Plus I'd hardly put processor design into the same category drug manufacturing. That's a poor appeal to emotion. No one needs a GTX1080Ti...

Do not confuse R&D and fundamental research.

I'm/was doing fundamental research, it have nothing to to with aimed R&D!

The billion they spend is done as application, not discovering any new scientific clues. But the application came directly from fundamental research!

If you can bring me papers on scientific physics/nanotechnology/electronics journals, but as far i know, companies do not publish much, because publish = share knowledge, that goes against the company rules and against the patenting process.

So patent holder for more than 10/20 years are heresy for me. Companies had plenty the time to recover from their R&D investment!
Edited by Wimpzilla - 5/4/17 at 12:37pm
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post #18 of 50
28nm process...

Would be interesting news if it were 16nm...
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post #19 of 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wimpzilla View Post

Do not confuse R&D and fundamental research.

I'm/was doing fundamental research, it have nothing to to with aimed R&D!

The billion they spend is done as application, not discovering any new scientific clues. But the application came directly from fundamental research!

If you can bring me papers on scientific physics/nanotechnology/electronics journals, but as far i know, companies do not publish much, because publish = share knowledge, that goes against the company rules and against the patenting process.

So patent holder for more than 10/20 years are heresy for me. Companies had plenty the time to recover from their R&D investment!

IBM:
http://domino.watson.ibm.com/library/CyberDig.nsf/Home
Quote:
Our intent is to provide the scientific community with access to technical reports written by members of the IBM Research community. Some reports are available for download. Once a technical report is published in either a journal or conference proceedings, it is sometimes replaced with a reference to the external source. Please respect any copyright notices and limited distribution notices included in these reports.

http://www.scimagolab.com/blog/2012/worlds-top-100-companies-by-scientific-knowledge-production-a-scientometric-characterization-scopus-2003-2010/
Quote:
World’s Top 100 Companies by Scientific Knowledge Output, a Scientometric Characterization (SCOPUS 2003-2010)
Quote:
Output

The number of scientific papers published in scholarly journals reveals the ability of an institution to create scientific knowledge. In co-authored publications, a score is assigned to each contributing institution through the author’s institutional address.

TSMC is listed at 1,163
Edited by CasualCat - 5/4/17 at 12:48pm
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There is very little science being done in semiconductor fabs, but tons of engineering. There are major breakthroughs in equipment periodically, sure, and sometimes that will come from internal R&D, but primarily what they do is process control. That part of the effort is worth protecting with a patent, even if the idea of a transistor or patterning metal and oxide layers isn't.

It's the difference between patenting the idea of a car and any particular individual car design.
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Overclock.net › Forums › Industry News › Technology and Science News › [WCCF] Tech Secrets Of NVIDIA & AMD GPU Manufacturer TSMC Stolen – Former Engineer Arrested In China