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[WCCF] Tech Secrets Of NVIDIA & AMD GPU Manufacturer TSMC Stolen – Former Engineer Arrested In China - Page 3

post #21 of 50
The process on how to make the chips is MUCH more valuable than the design. Anyone can cut a chip and see the design. How to make it is another story and is the key IP that can be stolen. EVERYONE cuts their competitors dies.
post #22 of 50
Well i really do not know the amount of papers published by R&D companies, but again one is not much compared to the amount of papers published by fundamental researcher.
So i would not consider R&D companies as fundamental research, but as i said, more into the aimed development of the scientific clues.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Slomo4shO View Post

28nm process...

Would be interesting news if it were 16nm...

That was my point, almost 5/7 years passed, an era into the electronics world, so it mean that all the manufacturing process would be eternal patent or Intel/TSMC/AMD/Nvidia actually have a defined amount of time holding the patent?
Quote:
Originally Posted by mmonnin View Post

The process on how to make the chips is MUCH more valuable than the design. Anyone can cut a chip and see the design. How to make it is another story and is the key IP that can be stolen. EVERYONE cuts their competitors dies.

Whit the actual technology and decent skilled people is not hard to find out how it is manufactured. But even if you know how, you can't use it because it patented. A the moment technology do not make miracles and follow up the science.
Edited by Wimpzilla - 5/4/17 at 12:55pm
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post #23 of 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wimpzilla View Post

Well i really do not know the amount of papers published by R&D companies, but again one is not much compared to the amount of papers published by fundamental researcher.
So i would not consider R&D companies as fundamental research, but as i said, more into the aimed development of the scientific clues.

Based on what? At this point it really seems like you're just making stuff up based on your own preconceived notions. I just posted a link that lists scientific paper output for companies and it is even 7 years old. What is a "fundamental researcher" and why can't a scientist working at a company be a "fundamental researcher?"
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post #24 of 50
https://phys.org/

When you work for a company as researcher you are not free anymore to dig as far you want into a clue.
If you find something interesting it will not be considered, if it not follow the aims of the company, or can't be used to develop something.
You had to follow what the company aim to.

You so became an R&D guy instead of a fundamental researcher!

But my previous question was genuine, i really do not know if Intel have time limited patent on the 28nm process or it is eternal and belong to the company only?
Edited by Wimpzilla - 5/4/17 at 1:00pm
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post #25 of 50
I have to agree with Wimpzilla here. Several generations old lithography is no longer making its investors any money, nor is it any threat to them if other parties get a hold of it (well, at least not so long as there isn't any hidden controversy to discover within it). It is however now of great benefit to the industry as a whole to be made publicly available.

I don't condone taking law into one's own hands and stealing this intellectual property in order to liberate it, but I'm also not going to pretend like I'm outraged over a crime that only exists because of outmoded legislation that was written centuries before electronic computers were even conceived.
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post #26 of 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zero4549 View Post

I have to agree with Wimpzilla here. Several generations old lithography is no longer making its investors any money, nor is it any threat to them if other parties get a hold of it (well, at least not so long as there isn't any hidden controversy to discover within it). It is however now of great benefit to the industry as a whole to be made publicly available.

I don't condone taking law into one's own hands and stealing this intellectual property in order to liberate it, but I'm also not going to pretend like I'm outraged over a crime that only exists because of outmoded legislation that was written centuries before electronic computers were even conceived.

I'm not outraged over the theft, and I agree there is room for patent reform, but what is irritating is his naive know-it-all stance.


He's gone from companies don't do research (which he was wildly wrong about) to, "well they're not real scientists and they have no scientific freedom."
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post #27 of 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wimpzilla View Post

Well i really do not know the amount of papers published by R&D companies, but again one is not much compared to the amount of papers published by fundamental researcher.
So i would not consider R&D companies as fundamental research, but as i said, more into the aimed development of the scientific clues.
That was my point, almost 5/7 years passed, an era into the electronics world, so it mean that all the manufacturing process would be eternal patent or Intel/TSMC/AMD/Nvidia actually have a defined amount of time holding the patent?
Whit the actual technology and decent skilled people is not hard to find out how it is manufactured. But even if you know how, you can't use it because it patented. A the moment technology do not make miracles and follow up the science.

There's a big difference in how the chip is physically laid out (design) and the actual steps to fabricate the chip to look like that (process). The design is easy, just de-process the chip. Knowing the temperatures, pressures, Gases, Chems and exact sequence used within a single process step becomes much harder to get. Then put a thousand of those steps together to make the full chip. That is the real value that was stolen.

The company this guy tried to go to was just trying to get to 28nm. Sure it's not 10-14nm but 28nm is still billions of $ in revenue each year.
post #28 of 50
No problem with that, but still there patent are unlimited for the node process?!

If yes i clearly see an issue, imo, whit all the stuff argued before.

If not and are limited, as it should be imo, i'm happy with that.
Like Zero4549 said, its is not the good way to do so, stealing proprietary information.
Quote:
Originally Posted by CasualCat View Post

I'm not outraged over the theft, and I agree there is room for patent reform, but what is irritating is his naive know-it-all stance.


He's gone from companies don't do research (which he was wildly wrong about) to, "well they're not real scientists and they have no scientific freedom."

I spend half of my life studding you know, having passion for science in general, sorry to irritate you. smile.gif
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post #29 of 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wimpzilla View Post

I spend half of my life studding you know, having passion for science in general, sorry to irritate you. smile.gif

Companies protect their assets. Again, when you pour millions or billions of dollars into research, you want to see a return on investment; if you spend millions of dollars researching and developing a technique or process, you would love to recover those costs and then make millions (or billions) of dollars more. That's just business and it has nothing to do with the scientific community.

I have a feeling that TSMC, Intel, etc. are glad to "share" scientific milestones that may help further the advancement of mankind, but they will not share the process they use said science to help them make money.

As a DBA, I could explain why log shipping is important for databases, but as I am under an NDA, I would NEVER explain how we accomplish it at my place of employment. Do you see the difference?
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post #30 of 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mad Pistol View Post

Companies protect their assets. Again, when you pour millions or billions of dollars into research, you want to see a return on investment; if you spend millions of dollars researching and developing a technique or process, you would love to recover those costs and then make millions (or billions) of dollars more. That's just business and it has nothing to do with the scientific community.

I have a feeling that TSMC, Intel, etc. are glad to "share" scientific milestones that may help further the advancement of mankind, but they will not share the process they use said science to help them make money.

As a DBA, I could explain why log shipping is important for databases, but as I am under an NDA, I would NEVER explain how we accomplish it at my place of employment. Do you see the difference?

I saw the difference, got it but my point was on this 28nm process and generally the time of validity of developed patent.

Again i will not agree, companies make money from fundamental research, companies do not spend time to do fundamental research, this is a fact.
Because as you said companies invest billions to develop from fundamental research they need to recover the invested money., but it is the same scientist guy that is hired from the university to the company to do R&D.
So scientific community and companies are tied together by $, this is a fact!
Companies do not share anything valuable for human kind it do not bother, only $ matter again it is a fact!
I agree one should recover what it have invested, but since there is no concurrence aka Intel, it recover what invested and earn money for an indefinite period of time.
So again dunno if the 28nm process patent have a finite time, but if not the companies are earning constantly money removing the possibility that other companies emerges due to the patent.
What i just pictured is the actual state of the cpu x86 market!
Edited by Wimpzilla - 5/4/17 at 2:07pm
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