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[DSOgaming] AMD confirms that it will showcase its new Radeon RX Vega gaming/consumer graphics card at Computex - Page 9

post #81 of 317
Quote:
Originally Posted by magnek View Post

The chart completely overlooks the fact that R&D expenditure is likely to be far greater than raw materials cost. Not implying anything about Fiji's R&D vs Hawaii's, but just pointing out that simply comparing raw materials cost is quite misleading.

Well raw material is what I was arguing. Cost of HBM per Gigabyte...

I've never seen parts tear down factor in R&D.
post #82 of 317
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hardware Hoshi View Post

Stop being in denial! I am really patient with your annoying style of discussion here.

The defect rate of Fiji should have given you a clue. As a matter of facts, it was so bad AMD gave defective Fiji chips as a free gimmick (keychain?!) in each Pro Duo package. You know, if there is a single failure in the assembly process of HBM + Interposer + GPU die ... you can throw aways the whole construct. Unlike GDDR5 you can't just simply solder the chip from the countless mini-connections to the HBM stack.

We all learned this from the Fiji reviews 2 years ago, no need to scream for proof anymore. German article from 2015
(original - german)
https://www.hardwareluxx.de/index.php/artikel/hardware/grafikkarten/35776-amd-fiji-wie-der-interposer-hbm-und-gpu-miteinander-verbindet.html

I quote (german):
"Damit die TSVs zur Verbindung der Komponenten genutzt werden können, muss eine Front Side (FS) mit drei Schichten aufgebracht werden. Auch diese besteht aus Kupfer und ist sehr fragil. Die Redistribution Layer (RDL) ist einer der Hauptgründe, warum die "Fiji"-GPU nur geringen mechanischen Belastungen ausgesetzt werden sollte. Dazu gehört auch, den Kühler nicht zu entfernen. Bereits geringe mechanische Kräfte können dafür sorgen, dass die Verbindungen abreißen und die komplette "Fiji"-GPU damit defekt ist.



Translation (google):
https://translate.google.com/translate?hl=de&sl=de&tl=en&u=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.hardwareluxx.de%2Findex.php%2Fartikel%2Fhardware%2Fgrafikkarten%2F35776-amd-fiji-wie-der-interposer-hbm-und-gpu-miteinander-verbindet.html

Again quote (G-transl.)
"In order for the TSVs to be used for connecting the components, a front side (FS) with three layers must be applied. This also consists of copper and is very fragile. The Redistribution Layer (RDL) is one of the main reasons why the "Fiji" GPU should be exposed to low mechanical loads. This also includes not removing the radiator. Already low mechanical forces can cause the connections to break down and the entire "Fiji" GPU is thus defective."

Still waiting to see how HBM is so expensive...
post #83 of 317
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nickyvida View Post

Better be a small volta competitor since it's already a year late and Pascal is going to be retired soon.


Being a year late and only being able to compete with 1080Ti or lower would be a disaster.
Lol, the fail to deliver part would be so just like AMD if Vega doesn't come up against Volta. biggrin.gif

I have a friend at work that picked up a Titan X Pascal about 2 weeks before the stealth launch of the 1080ti. At least he has the solace that Volta will just be bigger, more expensive Pascal.

In what world has the 1080ti that Vega is supposed to compete with been out for a year?

Personally, if Vega competes with the 1080ti I would actually pay more for it. Because even at the same fps I think it would be better.
But you can keep hyping your fail train party if that's your thing. There is probably some app where you can just hit a button to overlay "FAIL" and some appropriate sound effect on whatever you don't like on your computer.
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post #84 of 317
On a side note, This is a bit bold as AMD say this themself

"Radeon Vega Frontier Edition is very simply the fastest graphics card on the planet."

They are saying its better than Titan Xp there. And to say that from a viewers perspective doesnt just mean synthetic benchmarks
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post #85 of 317
Quote:
Originally Posted by budgetgamer120 View Post

Still waiting to see how HBM is so expensive...

It is more expensive than GDDR, you have proven that yourself with your "questionable" cost table. You used reddit as a source too. Oh, should I quickly create such a table and post it there too?

Don't make this any more ridiculous.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MaxFTW View Post

On a side note, This is a bit bold as AMD say this themself

"Radeon Vega Frontier Edition is very simply the fastest graphics card on the planet."

They are saying its better than Titan Xp there. And to say that from a viewers perspective doesnt just mean synthetic benchmarks

I remember when AMD was this loud-mouthed and got served by Core-2-Duo to Nehelem transistion of Intel.

This could be another "overclockers dream" claim.
post #86 of 317
Quote:
Originally Posted by SuperZan View Post

The same group of people that move from *80 to *80 Ti, sure. That's not the majority of the market. It's a very valuable piece of the halo market, but capturing that market is not an absolute necessity for RTG to be profitable. That's not my opinion, that's a fact. You may remember that the 1080 on launch was basically offering similar performance to a fully overclocked 980 Ti. That's with very little in terms of architectural development. However, we can go one gen back and find the 780 Ti in the same realm as the 980 on launch and that was with an actual architectural jump. Either way, I don't expect the 2080 to instantly obsolete the 1080 Ti any more than the previous *80's instantly obsoleted their past-gen *80 Ti 'competitors'.

For the majority of the market, that entire argument is unimportant anyway. 1080 performance at a 1070 price and/or 1080 Ti performance at a 1080 price would open up that very desirable performance level to a much greater swath of the market. For RTG to succeed they can't rely on playing Nvidia's game; they have to offer legitimate choices for 3440x1440p, 3840x2160p, and 1440p 144hz whilst providing a more compelling value argument. Do that and they can make their own niche.

I think the halo market is very underrated these days. Ever since AMD relinquished the high end market it's failed to compete with Nvidia, who has surpassed it. A top down stranglehold strategy that Nvidia is employing is better than competing in the price/performance bracket, which will allow it to spread its offerings better down the performance chain.


Quote:
Originally Posted by MaxFTW View Post

On a side note, This is a bit bold as AMD say this themself

"Radeon Vega Frontier Edition is very simply the fastest graphics card on the planet.(Until GV100)"

They are saying its better than Titan Xp there. And to say that from a viewers perspective doesnt just mean synthetic benchmarks

Fixed.biggrin.gif
post #87 of 317
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nickyvida View Post


I think the halo market is very underrated these days. Ever since AMD relinquished the high end market it's failed to compete with Nvidia, who has surpassed it. A top down stranglehold strategy that Nvidia is employing is better than competing in the price/performance bracket, which will allow it to spread its offerings better down the performance chain.

 

It's a good strategy, yes, but only one company can ever be the best at any given time. Nvidia has an incredible financial advantage. It's too much to expect RTG to swing back with total top-tier dominance. My point is that RTG/AMD don't have to win that particular battle to succeed financially, which ultimately increases their chances of eventually winning that performance battle down the line. An AMD flush with cash from the x86 business and keeping things moving in the GPU division with exceptional price/performance would make a much better competitor in the long-term. In the here and now, Nvidia is in the driver's seat but the overall performance crown is only one element in the larger picture.

 

Vega doesn't have to tee off on Pascal and unreleased Volta to succeed or be a good thing for the market and RTG. It just has to provide a great value in HRR 1440p, ultrawide, and 4k gaming. One can obtain a Freesync monitor in those flavours for less than the Gsync equivalent; if Vega offers performance to suit those displays at a better value proposition than Nvidia offers, that's a way to increase the 'high-end' TAM which is ostensibly what AMD is after going by their slides.

 
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post #88 of 317
Maybe Vega will be the next 9700 pro,
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post #89 of 317
Quote:
Originally Posted by budgetgamer120 View Post

Well raw material is what I was arguing. Cost of HBM per Gigabyte...

I've never seen parts tear down factor in R&D.

I know. I'm saying that a chart like that is very misleading since it ignores the R&D costs, which is going to make materials cost look like peanuts in comparison.
post #90 of 317
Quote:
Originally Posted by SuperZan View Post

It's a good strategy, yes, but only one company can ever be the best at any given time. Nvidia has an incredible financial advantage. It's too much to expect RTG to swing back with total top-tier dominance. My point is that RTG/AMD don't have to win that particular battle to succeed financially, which ultimately increases their chances of eventually winning that performance battle down the line. An AMD flush with cash from the x86 business and keeping things moving in the GPU division with exceptional price/performance would make a much better competitor in the long-term. In the here and now, Nvidia is in the driver's seat but the overall performance crown is only one element in the larger picture.

Vega doesn't have to tee off on Pascal and unreleased Volta to succeed or be a good thing for the market and RTG. It just has to provide a great value in HRR 1440p, ultrawide, and 4k gaming. One can obtain a Freesync monitor in those flavours for less than the Gsync equivalent; if Vega offers performance to suit those displays at a better value proposition than Nvidia offers, that's a way to increase the 'high-end' TAM which is ostensibly what AMD is after going by their slides.

Yes i know AMD is competing on dual fronts with CPU and GPU. But if you ask me, the perfect time to capture the price/performance bracket has long gone. Vega should have dropped last year. Most of the gamers now have a similar gfc with what AMD is offering and for a potentially similar cost. Most will want to look towards improvement, not buying the same thing that offers roughly the same performance again and Nvidia can just drop prices on Pascal if Vega undercuts it. They have Volta coming out anyway, hence they can move existing Pascal inventory to prepare for it.

It's going to be a huge ask imo. I dont see how they can compete, especially with Volta coming out.
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