Overclock.net › Forums › Intel › Intel CPUs › Skylake-X/Kaby Lake-X Combined Discussion
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

Skylake-X/Kaby Lake-X Combined Discussion - Page 452

post #4511 of 6047
Quote:
Originally Posted by cekim View Post

I've shaken my fist at the processor gods too - they built an amazing chip, crippled it with garbage TIM and then overcharged for it...

However, my ethical options are:
1. don't buy it
2. buy it and don't modify it
3. buy it, modify it and assume the risk.

SL offers a one-year warranty, so if I were more patient, I'd do that.

2 wrongs don't make a right, but I know that's crazy talk... thumb.gif

"I remember a time when we knew who's @#$ it was on the screen and why it was farting and I believe that time can come again..." -Sure, Not

Here's a hypothetical scenario where this can go really bad. This is purely hypothetical and I'd only give it maybe a 10% chance it could happen. Furthermore, it would only affect those who put a sustained load on the chip (folding, and workstation users). But it certainly isn't out of the realm of possibility.

The X299 socket is rated for 165W TDP. But the 7980XE pulls 500 - 1000W overclocked. That's 3 - 6x the rated limit.

Let's make these hypothetical assumptions:
  • Under sustained 165W, the socket/CPU lasts 10 years. (well beyond the warranty)
  • Under sustained 300W, the socket/CPU lasts 3 years.
  • Under sustained 500W, it lasts only 6 months.
  • Intel doesn't tell anyone about the MTTF for pulling 500W since it's considered overclocking and is out-of-spec.

Right now, we all see that 7980XE is an awesome processor (price aside).
  • If you don't delid it, the chip is severely handicapped and any overclock that pulls over 300W is impossible without subzero.
  • If you do delid it, the chip is capable of reaching the best overclocks at the cost of 500 - 1000W of power draw.

Because of the potential that's unleashed by deliding, everybody delids and runs 500 - 1000W overclocks. They either do it themselves or through a vendor like SL.

6 months later...

These delided 7980XE's start failing. And they fail for everybody regardless of temperatures or voltage. Anyone pulling above 500W sustained is affected. A further investigation reveals that the power delivery lines degrade from all the current which steadily increases resistance and capacitance. This is exacerbated by the fact that many of those who delided covered the PCB components with heat insulating electrical tape. Eventually, the heat from this melts the pcb and kills the chip.

Those who delided it themselves suddenly realize that they're out $2000. Those who went through a vendor start using their warranties. Those vendors get overwhelmed and go bankrupt.

Either way, somebody is gonna be screwed and it won't be Intel. Intel will be the winner since they don't have to honor any warranties. And they'll get even more money from everyone buying replacements. A lot of people will try to blame Intel that their chip is fragile, and all they'll tell you is that you were running it out of spec.


Again I don't think it's going to happen this way. But something about pulling so much power over such a small cross-sectional area of pins really has me cringing.

Even if it doesn't happen now, it may in the future if AMD forces Intel to bring XCC dies of some later architecture into HEDT that has a gazillion cores that require 5000W and several circuit breaker rails to handle. That's what we get for seeing the end of Dennard Scaling.
Edited by Mysticial - 10/23/17 at 2:09pm
post #4512 of 6047
Quote:
Originally Posted by CptSpig View Post

Awesome thumb.gif Still debating on buying from Silicon Lottery or B & H Photo. Warranty vs Delid? rolleyes.gif I will decide tomorrow one or the other. redface.gif
got one from B&H. yeah, it's a toss up. if it's a dud, i'll sell it and get one from SL.
Quote:
Originally Posted by cekim View Post

Other than mono-block and a longer term "case" for this thing, I'm trying to figure out how to get the BIOS to allow me to have a 4,6,8 core 4.7GHz+ A 1.2x and 18 core 4.5GHz @ 1.18v

That's one more level of control than is provided as far as I can tell. I can set a fixed voltage or an adaptive voltage, I can do so for all or by core.

I can tell windows to schedule to faster cores which higher top-end and voltages, but I can't use that approach in linux (where I do my computes). So, I think the only way I could do this in linux is core-by-core adaptive with negative offsets?
blinksmiley.gif
once you mentioned linux, I fuzzed out. Sounds like you got it figured out in windows, assign priorities? Sorry, if i could help i would, but not yet bro. my x299 4c8t has a very limited bios.
x99
(22 items)
 
Z370
(8 items)
 
x299
(18 items)
 
CPUCPUMotherboardGraphics
i7 5960X i7 6950X Asus Rampage V Extreme 10 2 GTX Titan X Pascal 
RAMHard DriveHard DriveHard Drive
GSkill 3200c14 TZs 8x8GB @ 3400c13 Intel 750 NVMe 400GB 2x Plextor SSD 256 Raid 0 (Win 7) Samsung NVMe 950 Pro M.2 
Optical DriveCoolingCoolingCooling
Plextor 810 2x XSPC RX360 Koolance 380i D5 
CoolingOSOSOS
Aquaero 6 Windows 10 x64  Windows 7 Pro Linux Mint 
MonitorKeyboardPowerCase
Seiki 50" 4K monitor (720P-2160i) 240-30Hz Das Keyboard Model S Pro Corsair AX1200 Case Labs SM8 
MouseAudio
Steelseries Rival Ultimate Ears TF10 
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
8700K ASUS Maximus X Apex GTX 1080 2x8 GB G.Skill 4400c19 
Hard DriveCoolingOSCase
Samsung 960 Pro 360Rad + Chiller Win 10 HWBOT OBT 
CPUCPUMotherboardGraphics
7740X 7980XE ASUS Rampage Vi Apex 2x Nvidia Titan Xp SLi 
RAMHard DriveHard DriveHard Drive
G.Skill 3600c15 2x8GB kits Intel 900p WD Raptor 1T Plextor SSDs Raid 0 
Optical DriveCoolingOSOS
Plextor DVD/BR R/W (very) Custom Water Windows 10 Pro Windows 7 Pro 
MonitorKeyboardPowerCase
ASUS 144Hz Ducky Corsair 1500i Microcool Benchetto 101 
MouseAudio
Steelseries Rival Ultimate ears TF10s (IEMs) 
  hide details  
Reply
x99
(22 items)
 
Z370
(8 items)
 
x299
(18 items)
 
CPUCPUMotherboardGraphics
i7 5960X i7 6950X Asus Rampage V Extreme 10 2 GTX Titan X Pascal 
RAMHard DriveHard DriveHard Drive
GSkill 3200c14 TZs 8x8GB @ 3400c13 Intel 750 NVMe 400GB 2x Plextor SSD 256 Raid 0 (Win 7) Samsung NVMe 950 Pro M.2 
Optical DriveCoolingCoolingCooling
Plextor 810 2x XSPC RX360 Koolance 380i D5 
CoolingOSOSOS
Aquaero 6 Windows 10 x64  Windows 7 Pro Linux Mint 
MonitorKeyboardPowerCase
Seiki 50" 4K monitor (720P-2160i) 240-30Hz Das Keyboard Model S Pro Corsair AX1200 Case Labs SM8 
MouseAudio
Steelseries Rival Ultimate Ears TF10 
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
8700K ASUS Maximus X Apex GTX 1080 2x8 GB G.Skill 4400c19 
Hard DriveCoolingOSCase
Samsung 960 Pro 360Rad + Chiller Win 10 HWBOT OBT 
CPUCPUMotherboardGraphics
7740X 7980XE ASUS Rampage Vi Apex 2x Nvidia Titan Xp SLi 
RAMHard DriveHard DriveHard Drive
G.Skill 3600c15 2x8GB kits Intel 900p WD Raptor 1T Plextor SSDs Raid 0 
Optical DriveCoolingOSOS
Plextor DVD/BR R/W (very) Custom Water Windows 10 Pro Windows 7 Pro 
MonitorKeyboardPowerCase
ASUS 144Hz Ducky Corsair 1500i Microcool Benchetto 101 
MouseAudio
Steelseries Rival Ultimate ears TF10s (IEMs) 
  hide details  
Reply
post #4513 of 6047
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mysticial View Post

Here's a hypothetical scenario where this can go really bad. This is purely hypothetical and I'd only give it maybe a 10% chance it could happen. Furthermore, it would only affect those who put a sustained load on the chip (folding, and workstation users). But it certainly isn't out of the realm of possibility.

The X299 socket is rated for 165W TDP. But the 7980XE pulls 500 - 1000W overclocked. That's 3 - 6x the rated limit.

Let's make these hypothetical assumptions:
  • Under sustained 165W, the socket/CPU lasts 10 years. (well beyond the warranty)
  • Under sustained 300W, the socket/CPU lasts 3 years.
  • Under sustained 500W, it lasts only 6 months.
  • Intel doesn't tell anyone about the MTTF for pulling 500W since it's considered overclocking and is out-of-spec.

Right now, we all see that 7980XE is an awesome processor (price aside).
  • If you don't delid it, the chip is severely handicapped and any overclock that pulls over 300W is impossible without subzero.
  • If you do delid it, the chip is capable of reaching the best overclocks at the cost of 500 - 1000W of power draw.
1. I think long term, we are "close" to some pretty impressive performance/watt points that thus far Intel hasn't needed to "reach for" for lack of competition. Given that we are "only " off by 2X something entirely reasonable (200W = reasonable 400W = current for 4.5GHz @1.18v) on this chip for a 4.5GHz, I think you can expect the competition will cause Intel to produce a lower power per IPC next generation. That's one thing Intel does exceedingly well most of the time.

2. You need to take a step back on the above - Intel never promised a chip that could do 18c @4.5GHz to anyone under any circumstances. They promised a chip that could do 2.6GHz worst-case and maybe hit some higher clocks under specific circumstances. So, objectively speaking, why _should_ they be the ones who get screwed when we abuse their chips?

I will grant you that I believe their $2K chip is priced by consumers assuming MUCH higher performance than that, but... frankly that's our mistake/gamble.

Now, if it turns out you can't really, reliably, cost effectively get the sort of performance priced into a $2K chip out of a chip for which you paid $2K, then intel will have its lunch eaten in the marketplace at a later date. AMD, ARM, MIPS, Fujitsu, IBM, Motorola, Sun and DEC have all proven this in spades over the years.

If the scenario you laid out comes to pass, then the market "valuation" of intel's HEDT chips will reflect this and they will be come the CFC light bulbs of the CPU industry until/unless something changes.
Edited by cekim - 10/23/17 at 2:25pm
post #4514 of 6047
Quote:
Originally Posted by cekim View Post

2. You need to take a step back on the above - Intel never promised a chip that could do 18c @4.5GHz to anyone under any circumstances. They promised a chip that could do 2.6GHz worst-case and maybe hit some higher clocks under specific circumstances. So, objectively speaking, why _should_ they be the ones who get screwed when we abuse their chips?

Ah, I didn't mean to imply that Intel should be the one to blame for anything other than not giving people bigger warnings about drawing high wattage and not releasing their MTTF curves. But it would certainly be a wake up call among the enthusiasts that the CPU isn't as robust as everything thinks it is.
Quote:
If the scenario you laid out comes to pass, then the market "valuation" of intel's HEDT chips will reflect this and they will be come the CFC light bulbs of the CPU industry until/unless something changes.

Or alternatively, the enthusiast market "catches up" by making products to address whatever the failure point is. So if it goes exactly as my hypothetical case describes (where the PCB components overheat because they aren't cooled and are insulated by tape), we might get direct-die monoblocks that solder themselves to the entire die, PCB, everything so it's a solid hunk of heat conducting mass with no holes anywhere to trap heat.
Edited by Mysticial - 10/23/17 at 2:43pm
post #4515 of 6047
Quote:
Originally Posted by cekim View Post

I've shaken my fist at the processor gods too - they built an amazing chip, crippled it with garbage TIM and then overcharged for it...

However, my ethical options are:
1. don't buy it
2. buy it and don't modify it
3. buy it, modify it and assume the risk.

SL offers a one-year warranty, so if I were more patient, I'd do that.

2 wrongs don't make a right, but I know that's crazy talk... thumb.gif

"I remember a time when we knew who's @#$ it was on the screen and why it was farting and I believe that time can come again..." -Sure, Not

Sadly, I'm with you. Karma can be such a biach smile.gif
post #4516 of 6047
Quote:
Originally Posted by djgar View Post

Sadly, I'm with you. Karma can be such a biach smile.gif
thumb.gif
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mysticial View Post

Ah, I didn't mean to imply that Intel should be the one to blame for anything other than not giving people bigger warnings about drawing high wattage and not releasing their MTTF curves. But it would certainly be a wake up call among the enthusiasts that the CPU isn't as robust as everything thinks it is.
Or alternatively, the enthusiast market "catches up" by making products to address whatever the failure point is. So if it goes exactly as my hypothetical case describes (where the PCB components overheat because they aren't cooled and are insulated by tape), we might get direct-die monoblocks that solder themselves to the entire die, PCB, everything so it's a solid hunk of heat conducting mass with no holes anywhere to trap heat.
thumb.gif Here's hoping.... Getting "Mr Fusion" ready for my 10KW CPU... biggrin.gif
post #4517 of 6047
Is there a Skylake-X overclocking guide? Thinks like average voltages, mesh clock speed, memory controller specifics? etc??
6950X
(15 items)
 
  
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
Intel 6950X @ 4.2 (100x42) ASUS Rampage V Extreme 3701 Geforce 1080Ti Founders Edition x2 SLI 64GB DDR4 3200MHz 14-14-14-34-1T 
Hard DriveCoolingOSMonitor
1.2TB Intel 750 PCIe Corsair H115i GTX Windows 10 Fall Creators Acer Predator 27" 1440p 144Hz x3 
KeyboardPowerCaseMouse
Razer Blackwidow Ultimate Corsair AX1500i Corsair Carbide Air 540 Cube Razer DeathAdder Chroma 2015 
Audio
Soundblaster X7 Limited Edition External DAC 
  hide details  
Reply
6950X
(15 items)
 
  
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
Intel 6950X @ 4.2 (100x42) ASUS Rampage V Extreme 3701 Geforce 1080Ti Founders Edition x2 SLI 64GB DDR4 3200MHz 14-14-14-34-1T 
Hard DriveCoolingOSMonitor
1.2TB Intel 750 PCIe Corsair H115i GTX Windows 10 Fall Creators Acer Predator 27" 1440p 144Hz x3 
KeyboardPowerCaseMouse
Razer Blackwidow Ultimate Corsair AX1500i Corsair Carbide Air 540 Cube Razer DeathAdder Chroma 2015 
Audio
Soundblaster X7 Limited Edition External DAC 
  hide details  
Reply
post #4518 of 6047
7940X and 7960X are now in stock at Newegg. No 7980XE yet, that I can see.
White Voodoo
(12 items)
 
ThinkPad W520
(8 items)
 
 
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
Intel Core i9-7980XE Asus Rampage VI Apex Gigabyte Aorus Waterforce WB 1080 Ti SLI G.Skill Trident Z 32GB (4x8GB) DDR4-3200 CL14 
Hard DriveCoolingCoolingCooling
Samsung 960 Evo 1TB HWLabs Nemesis GTR 420+280 Rads (7) Noctua NF-A14 iPPC-3000 PWM Fans EK-XRES 140 Revo D5 RGB PWM 
MonitorKeyboardPowerCase
NEC PA271W 2560x1440 Razer Blackwidow Chroma V2 EVGA 1600 T2 LD Cooling PC-V7 280/420 
CPUGraphicsRAMHard Drive
Core i7 2720QM @ 2.2 GHz Quadro 1000M 8GB DDR3-1333 500GB 7200RPM 
Optical DriveOSMonitorPower
DVD-RW Windows 7 Professional 64 bit 1920x1080 Matte 15.6" 170W Brick 
CPURAMHard DriveHard Drive
Dual Intel Xeon L5520 2.26 GHz 48 GB Samsung DDR3-1066 120 GB Samsung 750 Evo SSD 2 TB Western Digital Green 
Hard DriveOSPowerCase
2 TB Hitachi 7200 RPM Ubuntu Server 16.04 650W Delta PSU 1U Rackmount 
  hide details  
Reply
White Voodoo
(12 items)
 
ThinkPad W520
(8 items)
 
 
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
Intel Core i9-7980XE Asus Rampage VI Apex Gigabyte Aorus Waterforce WB 1080 Ti SLI G.Skill Trident Z 32GB (4x8GB) DDR4-3200 CL14 
Hard DriveCoolingCoolingCooling
Samsung 960 Evo 1TB HWLabs Nemesis GTR 420+280 Rads (7) Noctua NF-A14 iPPC-3000 PWM Fans EK-XRES 140 Revo D5 RGB PWM 
MonitorKeyboardPowerCase
NEC PA271W 2560x1440 Razer Blackwidow Chroma V2 EVGA 1600 T2 LD Cooling PC-V7 280/420 
CPUGraphicsRAMHard Drive
Core i7 2720QM @ 2.2 GHz Quadro 1000M 8GB DDR3-1333 500GB 7200RPM 
Optical DriveOSMonitorPower
DVD-RW Windows 7 Professional 64 bit 1920x1080 Matte 15.6" 170W Brick 
CPURAMHard DriveHard Drive
Dual Intel Xeon L5520 2.26 GHz 48 GB Samsung DDR3-1066 120 GB Samsung 750 Evo SSD 2 TB Western Digital Green 
Hard DriveOSPowerCase
2 TB Hitachi 7200 RPM Ubuntu Server 16.04 650W Delta PSU 1U Rackmount 
  hide details  
Reply
post #4519 of 6047
Yeah, maybe the pigeon poop is really there to protect you lol. Maybe the pigeon poop has the perfect amount of thermal transfer that safely runs the chip at rated speeds on the most common (90%) coolers used in the market, ie AIOs. That hypothetical scenario might have a higher than 10% chance of happening. You made some great points which probably aren't too far from the truth. And who really buys an 18 core chip that isn't going to put a sustained load on it? It's the only use case that validates having that many cores.
post #4520 of 6047
Quote:
Originally Posted by 7820x View Post

Yeah, maybe the pigeon poop is really there to protect you lol. Maybe the pigeon poop has the perfect amount of thermal transfer that safely runs the chip at rated speeds on the most common (90%) coolers used in the market, ie AIOs. That hypothetical scenario might have a higher than 10% chance of happening. You made some great points which probably aren't too far from the truth. And who really buys an 18 core chip that isn't going to put a sustained load on it? It's the only use case that validates having that many cores.
Well, now there is where I think Intel deserves some flak....

The usual tricks that an "X" MB plays (MCE on by default) will drive you past reasonable temps even on a decent AIO because of their poop...

A number of reviewers pointed out that it takes some doing to get it DOWN to their advertized TDP the chip and just about any bios out there come out of the box clobbering the TDP spec.

I don't think any buyer of the 79XX CPUs would have flinched if Intel said it was a 200-250W CPU with typical settings and just came out with it. 165W is a sad joke given the Xeon 6154 @ 3.7GHz is a 200W TDP...
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: Intel CPUs
Overclock.net › Forums › Intel › Intel CPUs › Skylake-X/Kaby Lake-X Combined Discussion