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Acoustic treatment for room.

1K views 44 replies 9 participants last post by  sepiashimmer 
#1 ·
The place where I reside is surround on all sides, the neighbors are no more than 2-3 feet away from the rooms on one side. On two another sides no more than 4-feet and on another side at least 6 feet(but this is a towering residential complex, so I doubt anyone would be bothered, maybe security guards.)

I want to improve the acoustics of the room to improve my music listening and also sound proof it. Is there a way I can do this? Professionals are asking so much money, I could get a good HT system with that money. What materials would I need and how will I know where to place them?
 
#2 ·
Well you are getting a little bit ahead of yourself.

I consider room treatment to be a little bit overkill tbh. I would only do room treatment for 2 reasons.

1: You have an actual issue with echos.

2: You have a million dollar audio system and sound treatment is the only thing you can do to squeeze out more performance.

If you really want sound treatment, the most I would do is get a large bit of foam to put behind your speakers.

Now if you have an issue with echos, then just get a piece of foam and experiment with placement in the room. Simple trial and error will allow you to correct the issue in short order.
 
#4 ·
Quote:
Originally Posted by sepiashimmer View Post

Thank you for your reply.

How would I sound proof the room?
Bottom line is you can't sound proof a normal room without serious remodeling and engineering.

You can get close by lining every wall and the ceiling with foam. Preferably egg crate foam. It won't truly sound proof your room, but it will get you close.

FYI, sound proofing a room usually makes audio sound weird. You want a little bit of room effect. Otherwise your audio will sound a little stuffy.
 
#5 ·
I watched a YouTube video of someone testing various sound proofing methods, using all types of foams from random phone to legit acoustic foam. The best results? Layers of bathroom towels, he framed up little boxes with them and made titles, probably like 10-15 towels thick.
 
#6 ·
To help sound proof the inside of a large house for a studio up north they were building they built a smaller structure inside the house consisting of insulated walls, plastic barriers and foam wall padding (the big triangles used in professional recording studios) and layered flooring. A rock group recording a track could barely be heard outside the main house.

To sound proof a single room is pretty complicated, you need layered flooring, foam insulation and a good amount of plastic, not to mention finishing with drywall or something similar, you would spend a good amount of money ($1000 range) just to help dampen one rooms sound, and it wouldn't be completely sound proof unless the walls, ceiling and floor are concrete. Only a concrete wall will completely block sound.

If you're looking for inexpensive alternatives you can use egg cartons and recycled mattress/memory foam to help block echo, but turn on a sub-woofer and everyone within 50 feet will know.
 
#7 ·
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tjj226 Angel View Post

Bottom line is you can't sound proof a normal room without serious remodeling and engineering.

You can get close by lining every wall and the ceiling with foam. Preferably egg crate foam. It won't truly sound proof your room, but it will get you close.

FYI, sound proofing a room usually makes audio sound weird. You want a little bit of room effect. Otherwise your audio will sound a little stuffy.
By stuffy do you mean cluttered? In some audio showrooms I auditioned their speakers had a 3-dimensional effect with just two speakers, it was like each instrument and voice was hanging in mid-air in their own place, I'm not getting such effect, was it because of the speakers themselves or because of the room treatment?
Quote:
Originally Posted by PurdueBoy View Post

I watched a YouTube video of someone testing various sound proofing methods, using all types of foams from random phone to legit acoustic foam. The best results? Layers of bathroom towels, he framed up little boxes with them and made titles, probably like 10-15 towels thick.
Can you post a pic or link? Thanks
Quote:
Originally Posted by oobymach View Post

To help sound proof the inside of a large house for a studio up north they were building they built a smaller structure inside the house consisting of insulated walls, plastic barriers and foam wall padding (the big triangles used in professional recording studios) and layered flooring. A rock group recording a track could barely be heard outside the main house.

To sound proof a single room is pretty complicated, you need layered flooring, foam insulation and a good amount of plastic, not to mention finishing with drywall or something similar, you would spend a good amount of money ($1000 range) just to help dampen one rooms sound, and it wouldn't be completely sound proof unless the walls, ceiling and floor are concrete. Only a concrete wall will completely block sound.

If you're looking for inexpensive alternatives you can use egg cartons and recycled mattress/memory foam to help block echo, but turn on a sub-woofer and everyone within 50 feet will know.
Will bass traps work?
 
#9 ·
Quote:
Originally Posted by sepiashimmer View Post

By stuffy do you mean cluttered? In some audio showrooms I auditioned their speakers had a 3-dimensional effect with just two speakers, it was like each instrument and voice was hanging in mid-air in their own place, I'm not getting such effect, was it because of the speakers themselves or because of the room treatment?
Can you post a pic or link? Thanks
Will bass traps work?
Here is the order of importance.

80% speakers.

15% amp.

4.75% dac.

0.25% room treatment.
 
#10 ·
1.) "Sound proofing" a room is near impossible. It can be done, but it would cost 10s of thousands of dollars.

2.) You don't just put up acoustic panels. There's a lot of experimentation with materials and placement.
Most people error on the side of making the room to "dead" sound wise.

What you want to stop is sound reflection - the sound from the speakers that bounces off the walls/ceiling/floor and then to your ears. You put a mirror on the wall/floor/ceiling, sit in your preferred listening spot and move the mirror until you can see the speaker(s) in it. then put the correct type acoustic panel(s) where the mirror is.



The problem is that the reflected sound is slightly delayed compared to the sound going directly to your ears and you brain can't deal with that - the sound stage, at best, sounds "washed out" (instruments and voices seem to move about), and at worst, nonexistent.

You night want to look at Dow Corning "professional" sound panels:



And I wouldn't buy any panels that don't have specs that tell you how much and at what frequencies sound is absorbed.

I see you've discovered "sound stage" - get ready to empty your wallet. The price of a DAC, AMP, and speakers able to produce decent "3 dimensional" sound stage starts at about $5K (throw in another $1K or so for room treatments).
 
#11 ·
Quote:
Originally Posted by billbartuska View Post

1.) "Sound proofing" a room is near impossible. It can be done, but it would cost 10s of thousands of dollars.

2.) You don't just put up acoustic panels. There's a lot of experimentation with materials and placement.
Most people error on the side of making the room to "dead" sound wise.

What you want to stop is sound reflection - the sound from the speakers that bounces off the walls/ceiling/floor and then to your ears. You put a mirror on the wall/floor/ceiling, sit in your preferred listening spot and move the mirror until you can see the speaker(s) in it. then put the correct type acoustic panel(s) where the mirror is.



The problem is that the reflected sound is slightly delayed compared to the sound going directly to your ears and you brain can't deal with that - the sound stage, at best, sounds "washed out" (instruments and voices seem to move about), and at worst, nonexistent.

You night want to look at Dow Corning "professional" sound panels:

And I wouldn't buy any panels that don't have specs that tell you how much and at what frequencies sound is absorbed.

I see you've discovered "sound stage" - get ready to empty your wallet. The price of a DAC, AMP, and speakers able to produce decent "3 dimensional" sound stage starts at about $5K (throw in another $1K or so for room treatments).
Thank you for your informative reply. Wouldn't speakers be reflected in the wall directly opposite to them? Shouldn't panels be place there also?

Will this adversely effect sound bars?

Have you auditioned B & W's MT-50D? Do you think they are capable of providing 3-dimensional effect? Usually in India these things cost double of what they cost in USA.
 
#12 ·
Quote:
Originally Posted by sepiashimmer View Post

Thank you for your informative reply. Wouldn't speakers be reflected in the wall directly opposite to them? Shouldn't panels be place there also?

Will this adversely effect sound bars?

Have you auditioned B & W's MT-50D? Do you think they are capable of providing 3-dimensional effect? Usually in India these things cost double of what they cost in USA.
Yes and no. The only parts you have to worry about is the sound that will be bounced back to you.

You can foam the whole opposite wall, but it will be pretty expensive, with not a lot of return.

Seriously, I am gonna say this one last time. Screw sound treatment. You need much much much MUCH better speakers before you worry about anything else.
 
#13 ·
Quote:
Originally Posted by sepiashimmer View Post

Wouldn't speakers be reflected in the wall directly opposite to them? Shouldn't panels be place there also? No. Draw the lines, the reflections from walls directly opposite the speakers never reach your ears.

I'm afraid to say that you're asking questions the answer to which you wouldn't understand.
You could also argue that the sound bounces all over the room and all of it (that isn't absorbed by wall/furniture/carpeting. etc.) eventually gets to you ears.

Will this adversely effect sound bars? Affect - yes (not: effect. Effect has a different meaning) - Yes it would affect them, as it would any sound. But the effect would be so small that you would never notice it.

Have you auditioned B & W's MT-50D? Do you think they are capable of providing 3-dimensional effect? No. You're confusing "Sound Stage" with "Multi- Channels speaker Setup"..
Have to leave home now. More info to follow.later..............
 
#14 ·
Thanks for your answer about MT-50. I don't think I'm confusing multi-channel audio with sound stage. But I was considering that speaker system, so I wanted to know if it might have the 3-dimensional effect(I can't audition them because none of the showrooms here have them). Or I can get B & W 683s(but a pair of these cost as much as the entire MT-50) but will they have 3-dimensional effect?

Here we have JBL, B & W, BOSE Focal, Onkyo officially. I might be able to track down few unofficial distributors of Polk, Klipsch, Wharfedale. I don't think I can find KEF. Which DAC, AMP and Speakers would you consider having 3-dimensional effect. I can't audition most of them.
 
#15 ·
Quote:
Originally Posted by sepiashimmer View Post

Thanks for your answer about MT-50. I don't think I'm confusing multi-channel audio with sound stage. But I was considering that speaker system, so I wanted to know if it might have the 3-dimensional effect(I can't audition them because none of the showrooms here have them). Or I can get B & W 683s(but a pair of these cost as much as the entire MT-50) but will they have 3-dimensional effect?

Here we have JBL, B & W, BOSE Focal, Onkyo officially. I might be able to track down few unofficial distributors of Polk, Klipsch, Wharfedale. I don't think I can find KEF. Which DAC, AMP and Speakers would you consider having 3-dimensional effect. I can't audition most of them.
First off, lets try and get you to sound a bit more like an audiophile. The proper term is imaging. You want a system with good imaging.
thumb.gif


Out of those companies you listed, REAL klipisch is going to be your best bet followed by REAL JBL. Both JBL and Klipisch have general consumer crap, and then they have a special division in the company for audiophile equipment. You want the higher end stuff. So for instance a pair of klipisch hereseys would be a good option.

I would also look for used gear on ebay that could be shipped internationally. Russia and the UK seem to be pretty good about shipping things wherever you want them.

Considering how blocked off you are from any audio markets, I would also look into building your own speakers. I know this sounds a bit daunting, but you can get very good sound quality for not a whole lot of money and you could buy the drivers and parts from pretty much anywhere in the world and have them shipped to you.
 
#16 ·
I can DEFINITELY hear a difference with acoustical paneling in my office and living room. I don't know why you guys would think it DOESN'T make a difference?

I understand it isn't going to sound proof (aka isolate sound to that room, from other adjacent rooms) but it definitely alters the frequency response perceived, phase, timing, etc.
 
#17 ·
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tjj226 Angel View Post

First off, lets try and get you to sound a bit more like an audiophile. The proper term is imaging. You want a system with good imaging.
thumb.gif


Out of those companies you listed, REAL klipisch is going to be your best bet followed by REAL JBL. Both JBL and Klipisch have general consumer crap, and then they have a special division in the company for audiophile equipment. You want the higher end stuff. So for instance a pair of klipisch hereseys would be a good option.

I would also look for used gear on ebay that could be shipped internationally. Russia and the UK seem to be pretty good about shipping things wherever you want them.

Considering how blocked off you are from any audio markets, I would also look into building your own speakers. I know this sounds a bit daunting, but you can get very good sound quality for not a whole lot of money and you could buy the drivers and parts from pretty much anywhere in the world and have them shipped to you.
Thanks for clearing up the confusion over terms.

I've also always wanted to build a speaker myself, but didn't know where to look or buy those parts. I'll start this as soon as I can.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scharfschutzen View Post

I can DEFINITELY hear a difference with acoustical paneling in my office and living room. I don't know why you guys would think it DOESN'T make a difference?

I understand it isn't going to sound proof (aka isolate sound to that room, from other adjacent rooms) but it definitely alters the frequency response perceived, phase, timing, etc.
In your opinion does it improve?
 
#18 ·
Quote:
Originally Posted by billbartuska View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by sepiashimmer View Post

Wouldn't speakers be reflected in the wall directly opposite to them? Shouldn't panels be place there also? No. Draw the lines, the reflections from walls directly opposite the speakers never reach your ears.

I'm afraid to say that you're asking questions the answer to which you wouldn't understand.
You could also argue that the sound bounces all over the room and all of it (that isn't absorbed by wall/furniture/carpeting. etc.) eventually gets to you ears.

Will this adversely effect sound bars? Affect - yes (not: effect. Effect has a different meaning) - Yes it would affect them, as it would any sound. But the effect would be so small that you would never notice it.

Have you auditioned B & W's MT-50D? Do you think they are capable of providing 3-dimensional effect? No. You're confusing "Sound Stage" with "Multi- Channels speaker Setup"..
Have to leave home now. More info to follow.later..............
First off. I'm not a gamer and I don't listen to movies on my audio system (two speakers and a subwoofer). And, as Tjj226 Angel points out, we're talking about imaging.

Stereo imaging refers to the aspect of sound recording and reproduction concerning the perceived spatial locations of the sound source(s), both laterally and in depth. An image is considered to be good if the location of the performers can be clearly located; the image is considered to be poor if the location of the performers is difficult to locate

Not to disparage the producer of games and multichanel movies, but they really don't pay much attention to "imaging". It's more like some sounds come from the right front speaker, some from the left rear speaker, some form the center channel speaker, etc., there's no attempt to make the sounds three dimensional though. You may hear the p[ersonmstart on teh right and ens on the left, but that's about it.

 
#19 ·
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scharfschutzen View Post

I can DEFINITELY hear a difference with acoustical paneling in my office and living room. I don't know why you guys would think it DOESN'T make a difference?

I understand it isn't going to sound proof (aka isolate sound to that room, from other adjacent rooms) but it definitely alters the frequency response perceived, phase, timing, etc.
Its not that it doesn't make a difference. The issue is that room treatment is very expensive and only the difference it makes highly depends on your situation.

Rather than spending the time or energy on room treatment, this guy is FARRRR better off spending it on speakers and an amp.
 
#20 ·
Quote:
Originally Posted by sepiashimmer View Post

Thanks for clearing up the confusion over terms.

I've also always wanted to build a speaker myself, but didn't know where to look or buy those parts. I'll start this as soon as I can.
Well wood is everywhere. You preferably want MDF which is that particle board wood made from wood pulp. Its nice and uniform so it doesn't impart too much tone into the sound.

You will need a crossover, terminals, and of course the speaker drivers. Parts express offers everything and ships internationally.

Do a good bit of googling first and try to go with a proven design. I REALLY like snell and audio note speakers. They are smaller and are piss simple to make yourself.
 
#21 ·
I agree sound-treatment can be expensive, but not ALL of it is expensive. I have 2" Soundtrax foam which works much better than Pyramid-shaped foam. Had those panels for almost 5 years now with little degradation. Everyone who visits my house compliments their looks.
http://www.nextacoustics.com/2-inch-soundtrax-acoustical-foam/
Quote:
Originally Posted by sepiashimmer View Post

In your opinion does it improve?
It totally depends on the room I am listening in AND where I position the speakers. I know this isn't the answer you want, but it's the truth.If I bring my Magnepans into my bedroom, they sound like an echo-chamber of crap because it's too small. If I bring them into my large living room, properly space away from the wall, toed in, etc...they sound like a live band in a small venue.

As Tjj226 Angel stated, you would gain much more performance from buying better SPEAKERS and an amp with lots of TRUE headroom (not over-inflated numbers.)

Just remember, whatever sounds BEST TO YOU is all that matters.
That being said, definitely educate yourself by listening to as many speakers, headphones, amps, DACs, etc as possible without spending money
smile.gif
 
#22 ·
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scharfschutzen View Post

...educate yourself by listening to as many speakers, headphones, amps, DACs, etc as possible without spending money
smile.gif
When you visit an audio showroom tell them what type of equipment you want to listen to, how much you want to spend, and ask then to demo what they suggest.

After you've done your listening comparisons, ask that they show you somethings that cost 1/2 as much and then some that cost twice as much. That way you'll get a good idea whether you're looking in the right price range, in addition to hearing more different sounding components and thereby better educating yourself on what to listen for (ie. the subtle differences in component sounds).
 
#23 ·
I'd say acoustic treatment is far more important than some would lead on to say otherwise. Good equipment is obviously important, but throwing a pair of high end speakers into a highly reflective, null-creating room is a great way to feel like you got ripped off. Good treatment will give you a flatter response, more dynamics, and better imaging out of ANY speakers.

First thing to do is get REW (Room EQ Wizard) and set it up, see what your setup is actually doing to see how best to tackle acoustic issues.

Next, placement is key. You can make a huge difference in your sound by moving your speakers around even just a few inches in some situations. Again, REW can really help you find a good response. I'd actually start with placement before anything else as placement will make the biggest difference with your existing room/equipment.

After you get your speakers just right, look up on DIY panels with rigid fiberglass or rigid rockwool (or any product that will absorb more than highs and mids.. "studio foam" is a BIG no. If you aren't catching your low end, you might be causing more problems than you are helping!). Start with first reflection points, as somebody else pointed out in this thread. Bass traps are another great way to go. Note that small room take a lot more treatment to be effective, so if you don't have much room to work with, you might consider moving to headphones instead! You can always do some quick testing with any dense, but breathable materials (such as a few folded up towels) and place them somehow in your proposed spots to see if it makes a difference in REW or to your ears. Good way to know if you are going down the right path. Though, I'll warn you: The difference in sound won't be that great until you get 100% of all first reflections taken care of first! Simply covering 2 points isn't going to blow you away.

If you have a decent sized room and want to get a larger, more natural "live" sound, look into diffusion instead of absorption. QRD calculators if you wanna DIY. Combine the two if possible for the best of all worlds.

I'll warn ya: Sound proofing, (or reducing the amount of sound that can come in and out of your room) is much more complicated. Look up a 2-leaf design (double wall) if you are serious into dropping that noise.

Just some tips from somebody who has done their home theater and studio rooms.
wink.gif
 
#24 ·
Quote:
Originally Posted by NoDestiny View Post

I'd say acoustic treatment is far more important than some would lead on to say otherwise. Good equipment is obviously important, but throwing a pair of high end speakers into a highly reflective, null-creating room is a great way to feel like you got ripped off. Good treatment will give you a flatter response, more dynamics, and better imaging out of ANY speakers.

First thing to do is get REW (Room EQ Wizard) and set it up, see what your setup is actually doing to see how best to tackle acoustic issues.

Next, placement is key. You can make a huge difference in your sound by moving your speakers around even just a few inches in some situations. Again, REW can really help you find a good response. I'd actually start with placement before anything else as placement will make the biggest difference with your existing room/equipment.

After you get your speakers just right, look up on DIY panels with rigid fiberglass or rigid rockwool (or any product that will absorb more than highs and mids.. "studio foam" is a BIG no. If you aren't catching your low end, you might be causing more problems than you are helping!). Start with first reflection points, as somebody else pointed out in this thread. Bass traps are another great way to go. Note that small room take a lot more treatment to be effective, so if you don't have much room to work with, you might consider moving to headphones instead! You can always do some quick testing with any dense, but breathable materials (such as a few folded up towels) and place them somehow in your proposed spots to see if it makes a difference in REW or to your ears. Good way to know if you are going down the right path. Though, I'll warn you: The difference in sound won't be that great until you get 100% of all first reflections taken care of first! Simply covering 2 points isn't going to blow you away.

If you have a decent sized room and want to get a larger, more natural "live" sound, look into diffusion instead of absorption. QRD calculators if you wanna DIY. Combine the two if possible for the best of all worlds.

I'll warn ya: Sound proofing, (or reducing the amount of sound that can come in and out of your room) is much more complicated. Look up a 2-leaf design (double wall) if you are serious into dropping that noise.

Just some tips from somebody who has done their home theater and studio rooms.
wink.gif
Thanks for your detailed and informative reply.

Do these acoustic panels pose a health hazard? Because one of the professional I spoke with said, they emit some gases which could be a health hazard if I spend a long time in it and suggested I spend more money for something which didn't emit gases.
 
#25 ·
Quote:
Originally Posted by sepiashimmer View Post

Thanks for your detailed and informative reply.

Do these acoustic panels pose a health hazard? Because one of the professional I spoke with said, they emit some gases which could be a health hazard if I spend a long time in it and suggested I spend more money for something which didn't emit gases.
Pro built panels that are sold as acoustic treatment that use all the same materials... I have yet to see any health hazards. But, we are talking about man-made insulation materials, so you would have to look up the MSDS on these products. I'd say as long as you don't use asbestos, you are probably gonna be fine.
smile.gif
Tons and tons of air ducts use the same fiberglass boards that acoustic treatment as made of, with air flowing through it directly. But again, I couldn't tell you for sure on what gasses they produce. Research this, definitely get back to me so I can know how much cancer to expect in my future.
 
#26 ·
if you want cheap sound dampening then carpet is the way to go, if you want cheap but good and dotn mind putting in time and effort then cut the tops off carboard egg boxes and glue the bottoms ot the wall, using standoff bolts cover them with plywood and glue the carpet tiles to the inside of the plywood, if you want something that isn't permenant then you build a box frame the size of your wall, fit plywood to one side then glue the egg boxes then fit the plywood to the other side and cover with carpet tiles....(you can also do this for the ceiling and floor although you will need thicker plywood for the top layer so it doesn't flex as you stand on it)

the room will be more dusty and be a complete pain in the backside to clean and likely bad for your lungs if you don't have a good air filtration system but the sound will be fantastic with good sound equipment not to mention it will be cheaper than the stuff you can buy
tongue.gif
 
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