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post #211 of 424
Do not forget that Hinkley Point C is going to feed the grid with energy more expensive than the rates being paid right now. When it eventually comes online it may be nearly twice as expensive.
post #212 of 424

Some of the attitudes towards progress shown in this thread are a little dispiriting. Imagine if JFK had said:

 

"We chose to go to the moon in this decade and do the other things, not because they are easy but... wait... this is going to be hard? Ah, screw it, let's just keep doing what we are doing then. Go home folks, nothing to see here."

 

 

 

Edit: Grammar. 


Edited by GingerJohn - 9/25/17 at 10:52am
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post #213 of 424
Quote:
Originally Posted by GingerJohn View Post

Some of the attitudes towards progress shown in this thread is a little dispiriting. Imagine if JFK had said:

"We chose to go to the moon in this decade and do the other things, not because they are easy but... wait... this is going to be hard? Ah, screw it, let's just keep doing what we are doing then. Go home folks, nothing to see here."
It's particularly dispiriting when one's single objection to progress is "but but I don't like it!".
    
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post #214 of 424
That is the cookie cutter response to several very valid issues, "progress"
(Copy and pasted via phone from Google)
prog·ress

noun

ˈpräɡres/

1.

forward or onward movement toward a destination.

"the darkness did not stop my progress"

synonyms:forward movement, advance, going,progression, headway, passage

"boulders made progress difficult"

verb

prəˈɡres/

1.

move forward or onward in space or time.

"as the century progressed, the quality of telescopes improved"

synonyms:go, make one's way, move, move forward, go forward, proceed, advance, go on, continue,make headway, work one's way

"they progressed slowly down the road"

Moving backwards is not progress. And inferior technology is very much moving backwards.


While i can see the appeal for some i also see major downfalls that make this inferior, by far.

Does that mean progress should stop? No. But it is not ready for Prime time
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post #215 of 424
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mega Man View Post

Moving backwards is not progress. And inferior technology is very much moving backwards.

While i can see the appeal for some i also see major downfalls that make this inferior, by far.

Does that mean progress should stop? No. But it is not ready for Prime time

 

Your argument seems to be along the lines of 'although this is suitable for a good 90% of applications, it isn't suitable for 100% of applications, therefore we should not pursue it'.

 

If we stuck to that attitude we would not even have started riding horses, since horses can't go down very steep slopes or over jumbled rocks as well as we can on foot. The horse and cart would never have happened because the roads at the time were not good enough for them to get everywhere. Or we would not have abandoned horses in favour of cars, because cars can't swim.

 

No one is saying that EV's will be able to fulfil all requirements today, tomorrow, or even in 5 years time. Even Mercedes are only offering EV versions of all their cars, they will still be selling ICE ones for some time to come.

 

However for a good 90% of commuters EVs are perfectly viable. And before you claim that your 1,000 mile per day commute must be the norm, it isn't - in 2003 only 8% of commuters in the US travelled more than 35 miles each way1. And, according to a 2002 survey, 78% of 'summer' trips fell comfortably within the range of an EV (50-249 miles), and a further 11% within extreme range for one (250-400 miles)2.

 

 

 

 

 

1 OmniStats Report by the Department of Transportation (PDF)

2 National Household Travel Survey Summer Travel

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post #216 of 424
Quote:
Originally Posted by GingerJohn View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mega Man View Post

Moving backwards is not progress. And inferior technology is very much moving backwards.


While i can see the appeal for some i also see major downfalls that make this inferior, by far.


Does that mean progress should stop? No. But it is not ready for Prime time

Your argument seems to be along the lines of 'although this is suitable for a good 90% of applications, it isn't suitable for 100% of applications, therefore we should not pursue it'.

If we stuck to that attitude we would not even have started riding horses, since horses can't go down very steep slopes or over jumbled rocks as well as we can on foot. The horse and cart would never have happened because the roads at the time were not good enough for them to get everywhere. Or we would not have abandoned horses in favour of cars, because cars can't swim.

No one is saying that EV's will be able to fulfil all requirements today, tomorrow, or even in 5 years time. Even Mercedes are only offering EV versions of all their cars, they will still be selling ICE ones for some time to come.

However for a good 90% of commuters EVs are perfectly viable. And before you claim that your 1,000 mile per day commute must be the norm, it isn't - in 2003 only 8% of commuters in the US travelled more than 35 miles each way1. And, according to a 2002 survey, 78% of 'summer' trips fell comfortably within the range of an EV (50-249 miles), and a further 11% within extreme range for one (250-400 miles)2.





1 OmniStats Report by the Department of Transportation (PDF)
2 National Household Travel Survey Summer Travel

Your 90% is in and of itself false. Maybe, and i do mean maybe if we all live in a big city. We won't even get into the country. But let's pretend that we do.

What happens if say a hurricane is coming And you need to leave excessively fast, or an earth quake. And you have minimal warning to get as far away as possible. 300-500 miles sure becomes less with traffic. And you run out of charge. What now? Lets think of these emergency situations first. Because it isn't the everyday that matters, it is the life and death situations that do.

(To further add to my 90% comment just because you get to work, does not mean your commuting ends, most of my wife's, and mine happen after we get to work. And my wife is an engineer aka office job which is why that is false data, how about instead of skewing the numbers, how about average amount traveled in full day)
Edited by Mega Man - 9/25/17 at 12:02pm
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post #217 of 424
Strawmaning people who don't want to be forced to use an inferior product through threat of state violence is not an effective argument.
post #218 of 424
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mega Man View Post


Your 90% is in and of itself false. Maybe, and i do mean maybe if we all live in a big city. We won't even get into the country. But let's pretend that we do.

What happens if say a hurricane is coming And you need to leave excessively fast, or an earth quake. And you have minimal warning to get as far away as possible. 300-500 miles sure becomes less with traffic. And you run out of charge. What now? Lets think of these emergency situations first. Because it isn't the everyday that matters, it is the life and death situations that do.

(To further add to my 90% comment just because you get to work, does not mean your commuting ends, most of my wife's, and mine happen after we get to work. And my wife is an engineer aka office job which is why that is false data, how about instead of skewing the numbers, how about average amount traveled in full day)

 

So you literally ignore the data I found? 

 

That comes from the DoT, not some random feelings that you have about your commute. And it is for the entire US, not just cities. It may well be that the 8% on that study are all the people commuting in the rural areas, but I said 90% and the last time I checked, 100-8 = 92. 

 

And as for travel once you get to work, how many people do you think do that? 5%? 10% I'd be surprised if it is more. If you want another study to ignore, in 2002 the DoT found that the average driver does 29 miles per day. If you wish to refute these, please do, but with actual data this time. Actually, if you could find a more up to date source it would be appreciated. 

 

 

Natural disasters are, happily, not the normal usage scenario. Earthquakes you get zero warning - shelter under a solid piece of furniture and wait out the aftershocks. You do not want to be driving during an earthquake. 

 

As for the hurricane - cars are possibly the worst way to evacuate an area. You end up with massive grid lock, and a car is one of the worst places to be in a flood. A recent example of this would be Houston - they deliberately did not order an evacuation because of the lessons learned in 2005. Of the 100 people that died during Hurricane Rita, at least 60 of those were due to the evacuation. Shelter in place is much more effective than evacuating.

 

Again, some actual sources:

 

[BBC] Why was Houston not evacuated before Hurricane Harvey?

[Texas House Research Organisation] Evacuation Planning in Texas: Before and After Hurricane Rita (PDF)

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by SpankyMcFlych View Post

Strawmaning people who don't want to be forced to use an inferior product through threat of state violence is not an effective argument.

 

Now I'm really confused. Where is the straw man? Where is the threat of violence? And where is the 'being forced to' use EVs?

 

Are you reading a different thread?


Edited by GingerJohn - 9/25/17 at 12:31pm
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post #219 of 424
You must be hard on drugs to think that the EV is an inferior technology or moving backwards.

Electric motors are better than ICEs in every single metric. It is so far superior you can't take seriously people downplaying it. Batteries are getting better and cheaper almost on a daily basis.

And those batteries will allow you to get off the grid when you install them at home.

The benefits of EVs outweigh the cons by a massive margin. It is a no-brainer to get on-board and that's why every brand is rushing them and governments helping with the transition.

Spin it all you like. Whinning in a forum won't change a thing.
post #220 of 424
Quote:
Originally Posted by GingerJohn View Post

Your argument seems to be along the lines of 'although this is suitable for a good 90% of applications, it isn't suitable for 100% of applications, therefore we should not pursue it'.

If we stuck to that attitude we would not even have started riding horses, since horses can't go down very steep slopes or over jumbled rocks as well as we can on foot. The horse and cart would never have happened because the roads at the time were not good enough for them to get everywhere. Or we would not have abandoned horses in favour of cars, because cars can't swim.

No one is saying that EV's will be able to fulfil all requirements today, tomorrow, or even in 5 years time. Even Mercedes are only offering EV versions of all their cars, they will still be selling ICE ones for some time to come.

However for a good 90% of commuters EVs are perfectly viable. And before you claim that your 1,000 mile per day commute must be the norm, it isn't - in 2003 only 8% of commuters in the US travelled more than 35 miles each way1. And, according to a 2002 survey, 78% of 'summer' trips fell comfortably within the range of an EV (50-249 miles), and a further 11% within extreme range for one (250-400 miles)2.

The claim that it's 90% of committers is absurd. A large chunk of "urban" populations aren't that urban. I live in a suburb, as do a lot of people, especially older Americans with families. Frequent long-range trips with zero downtime between vehicles are common. And an EV that has little downtime is a dead EV. Especially when the majority of EVs are plug-in and need several hours of charging. Super charging will fix it, but if it requires equipment to be installed in your house, that's extra cost. Neither I, nor anyone I know will spend an extra couple thousand on their house just to supercharge a vehicle.

EVs are cool, but they're looking like a supplement at the moment, not a replacement. Which is fine, that's already impressive and there are other ways we can cut on emissions. Not to mention lots of other ways we can pursue a Green policy.
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Overclock.net › Forums › Industry News › Hardware News › [Techcrunch] Mercedes-Benz will electrify its entire car lineup by 2022