Overclock.net banner

a quick question for yall

1K views 42 replies 11 participants last post by  billbartuska 
#1 ·
just a fast question lets say if im using 1 240mm AOI and i wanna add a 120mm rad but i can get a better deal on a 120mm AOI and the only diff between the two AOI is one pump runs are 2600 rpm and the other runs at 2400 rpm max .( they run at full all the time btw)

the question

lets say i wanted to loops both AOI together with a res can i do it and keep both pumps? since there rpm isnt far apart i doute there would be much of a issue and depending on how big the res is the extra pump probably wouldn't hurt since i wanna link the two rads together (which i know u'll all say keep them on diff loops and i dont want to cuz i got other plans later)

so idea of loop would go like so

240mm - 120mm in - 120mm out - reservoir -cpu block/pump1 - gpu block / pump 2 - back to 240mm rad

i just wanna know if the two pumps would make a huge issue for each other or would it not really matter at all? thanks all i do have a diff block for the gpu if i need and just remove a pump and keep it as a back up but was just wondering

Jinx out
 
See less See more
#2 ·
Pumps in series increases the pressure but the flow rate remains the same.
Pumps in parallel increases the flow rate but the pressure remains the same.

Pumps in Parallel or Serial

It's a small consideration but the water temperature anywhere in the loop varies by less than 0.5°c (typically 0.25°c).
Since the water is the coolest just after the rad, and block and pump add heat to the loop the preferred setup is

Res > Pump > Rad < Block > Back to Res.
 
#3 ·
Using two pumps of different speeds is completely fine.
As long as the loop flow rate is under the maximum flow rate of the pump then it adds pressure and increases flow. Due to the restriction of components on flow rate a loops flow is always far under the flow rate the pumps are capable of. The difference is so great that is normally the case that one pump can be at full speed and the second can be at minimum speed while still adding pressure and flow.
Even if the loop flow was somehow over what the pump was capable of they are high bypass so they don't add noticeable restriction. The second pump would just be running for no reason but will not affect the primary pump.

Pumps in series double the head pressure at the same flow rate but of course that extra pressure increases the flow rate.

So if you have a test loop with a tap, when the second pump is activated you could close the tap and adjust to the same flow rate and you will see double the head pressure. If the tap is not adjusted the extra head pressure creates more flow. Doubling flow rate quadruples restriction so very roughly a second pump increases flow by 50%.
Pump pressure drops with increasing flow rate so the percentage of flow rate increase drops with higher flows. At normal loop flow rates 50% is pretty accurate.
 
#4 ·
ok so to give a bit more insight to all this im using the maelstrom 240t kit + thinking about buying a maelstrom 120 kit both are AOI. i was thinking about putting one on my gpu and obvsly have the 240 on my cpu. no i know rule of thumb is 240mm rad per main unit being cooled but i figured since i dont OC my comp and even under load now on fan my gpu only hits 61c for the stuff i use my comp for i think the 360mm of rad would do the job.

as far as the loop would go i guess if u wanted a starting point it would be

reservoir to cpu block to gpu to rads back to res

the res itself is a copper chilled res so it adds even more cooling after the rads below ambient befor going to the cpu and gpu block. i know i should probably say screw it and just keep separate loops but since i got the chilled res i wanna make it all on 1 loop.

but at least u guys clarified for me that twin pumps wont hurt the loop really which was what i was worried about thank you

Jinx out
 
#5 ·
The rule of thumb is 120mm per item being cooled, plus an additional 120mm, not 240 per item.So if you are cooling 5 items, it would be 720mm, not 1200mm.

Stop worrying about the loop order, it will make next to no difference in the loop's cooling ability.
 
#6 ·
Trying to expand CLCs is throwing away time and energy. It's a pointless exercise. Adding more bad components to a collection of already bad components doesn't make things better, especially when said low quality components aren't made to be expanded in the first place. Do yourself a favor and grab something like a Swiftech H220-X2 and use that as the start of an expandable cooling system.
 
#7 ·
naw im good ppl say low quality yet review wise its doing as well as corsairs and so on theirs nothing saying its a bad part or anything plus just a heads up just cuz you pay 5 times more for something in this world DOESN'T make it better then something half the price... alot of the time it just shows u are all about a name.. be a wolf in the world not just another sheep

lastly im not to worried about order but thank you for clearing up its 120 per plus a xtra 120 to cover jaystwocents said its 240 per so thats what i was going off but again not like my unit is some crazy OC beats maxing temps or anything

anyways just cooling the cpu and gpu will have 360mm of rad and a custom fully chilled copper reservoir thats hooked to a switch in case i wanna drop temps more

thanks for all the input guys and gals

Jinx out
 
#8 ·
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jinx1586 View Post

naw im good ppl say low quality yet review wise its doing as well as corsairs and so on theirs nothing saying its a bad part or anything plus just a heads up just cuz you pay 5 times more for something in this world DOESN'T make it better then something half the price... alot of the time it just shows u are all about a name.. be a wolf in the world not just another sheep

lastly im not to worried about order but thank you for clearing up its 120 per plus a xtra 120 to cover jaystwocents said its 240 per so thats what i was going off but again not like my unit is some crazy OC beats maxing temps or anything

anyways just cooling the cpu and gpu will have 360mm of rad and a custom fully chilled copper reservoir thats hooked to a switch in case i wanna drop temps more

thanks for all the input guys and gals

Jinx out
It has nothing to Do with a name. I would have said exactly the same thing about any CLC, Corsair included (which is just an Asetek rebranded, btw). It has to Do with copper vs aluminum rads, the fact that PLC pumps have very low head pressure, the blocks being marginal, and the fact that they aren't designed to be expanded for all of these reasons. You aren't being a "wolf", you are simply pursuing a foolish endeavor.
 
#9 ·
yup foolish cept theirs tons and tons of ppl and professional you-tubers that have done it with out issue right? along with ppl that have ran these pumps and loops for YEARS with no issues at all? if a system is rated for 120k hours it means its been tested to last that long doesn't matter brand of price. i would probably say most AOI run 200-300 LPH or so which should be enough for a full custom loop

but this topic was about two pumps affecting each other not to criticize my plan/goal with my comp so thanks
 
#10 ·
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jinx1586 View Post

yup foolish cept theirs tons and tons of ppl and professional you-tubers that have done it with out issue right? along with ppl that have ran these pumps and loops for YEARS with no issues at all? if a system is rated for 120k hours it means its been tested to last that long doesn't matter brand of price. i would probably say most AOI run 200-300 LPH or so which should be enough for a full custom loop

but this topic was about two pumps affecting each other not to criticize my plan/goal with my comp so thanks
I don't think the maelstrom is that old is it? It will take a few years until people have been running them long enough to know for sure how good they are.

If you haven't already bought all of the components then I would recommend you put that money towards a kit like the XSPC raystorm. The parts are nicer than AIO parts and will last you a lot longer. I've run both types of gear and they don't behave the same way at all, regardless of what specs might look like on paper.
 
#11 ·
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jinx1586 View Post

yup foolish cept theirs tons and tons of ppl and professional you-tubers that have done it with out issue right? along with ppl that have ran these pumps and loops for YEARS with no issues at all? if a system is rated for 120k hours it means its been tested to last that long doesn't matter brand of price. i would probably say most AOI run 200-300 LPH or so which should be enough for a full custom loop

but this topic was about two pumps affecting each other not to criticize my plan/goal with my comp so thanks
This topic about as logical as trying to make a silk purse out of a sow's ear, then thinking if you use 2x sows' ears you can make them into a $10,000 designer handbag. CLCs are made as cheaply as is possible and still work.

How many people is "tons of ppl"? What makes "professional you-tubers"who make all kinds of scientific claims and expect us to believe them because the are 'famous'.

While you can claim the Malstrorm 240T is a AIO, it is really a CLC. CLC is a specific kind of AIO that is manufactured in such a way as to have no fill port, no threaded fittings, and no removable or replaceable components. CLCs were originally called LCLC .. for Low Cost Liquid Cooler. They are made to the absolute lowest possible standards and quality that will still manage to cool the component they are installed on .. and to keep running just long enough so consumer does not take legal action against brand name and/or manufacturer. Their warranty period is simple marketing ploy to dupe consumer into thinking the will last a long time. There are twice as many 'tons of ppl' who have had them fail. as you have 'tons of ppl'.

What few CLCs that do have published specs flow from 40-61 L/h .. with only ID Cooling Frostflow being 96 L/h and Enermax Liqtech TR4 being 450 L/h (no idea who makes them).

Maybe this will help you understand why everyone keeps telling you to not try expanding our CLC"
AIO is a very large parent group name for pre assembled and filled liquid coolers, but all but a few are really members of the CLC sub-group .. liquid coolers that originally were called LCLC for Low Cost Liquid Cooler. They all use aluminum radiators, very low flow rate and head pumps, and have no provision for maintenance or expansion. Here's a chart of AIO, CLC and custom loop D5 pump specs. It is not complete because it is almost impossible to find CLC pump flow rate and lift specifications. If anyone has information not included, please let me know.
http://www.overclock.net/t/1491876/ways-to-better-cooling-airflow-cooler-fan-data/80_20#post_23828310
 
#12 ·
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jinx1586 View Post

lastly im not to worried about order but thank you for clearing up its 120 per plus a xtra 120 to cover jaystwocents said its 240 per so thats what i was going off but again not like my unit is some crazy OC beats maxing temps or anything
Jay says 120 per plus 120. Proof:

https://youtu.be/gohE6cytlFU?t=5m15s
 
#14 ·
Just a quick glance at their product page and it says it's an aluminum fin array so not sure about the actual rad core. I'd guess it's probably aluminum as well considering its a clc.

You got fairly defensive in your response to people giving you advice and I get it. Sometimes on here some tend to push for a far more expensive route than you want to go. In this case, however, they are right. This cooler was never meant to be expanded in the ways you want to do it. You can't, easily at least, just add a second clc and res. I mean you could but it's gonna require some serious modding of the cooler that will certainly void your warranty and is a very serious risk of leaking.

Either stick with your cooler as is, cool your cpu with it and be happy, or move to an AIO that IS designed to be expanded like the swiftech the one user mentioned. Or buy a kit that includes real custom water cooled components. They aren't a lot of money, and are leaps and bounds better than clc's.

No one is saying you have to spend a grand on liquid cooling gear but to cheap out and try to doctor up a pair AIOs to work together is begging for trouble.

The fact you keep calling it AOIs shows your lack of knowledge on this subject. I wrote the first off as a typo but you used it like 4 times.

Not flaming you here. Just saying you should consider the info people, who have been down this road before, are offering you.
 
#15 ·
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jyve View Post

Just a quick glance at their product page and it says it's an aluminum fin array so not sure about the actual rad core. I'd guess it's probably aluminum as well considering its a clc.

You got fairly defensive in your response to people giving you advice and I get it. Sometimes on here some tend to push for a far more expensive route than you want to go. In this case, however, they are right. This cooler was never meant to be expanded in the ways you want to do it. You can't, easily at least, just add a second clc and res. I mean you could but it's gonna require some serious modding of the cooler that will certainly void your warranty and is a very serious risk of leaking.

Either stick with your cooler as is, cool your cpu with it and be happy, or move to an AIO that IS designed to be expanded like the swiftech the one user mentioned. Or buy a kit that includes real custom water cooled components. They aren't a lot of money, and are leaps and bounds better than clc's.

No one is saying you have to spend a grand on liquid cooling gear but to cheap out and try to doctor up a pair AIOs to work together is begging for trouble.

The fact you keep calling it AOIs shows your lack of knowledge on this subject. I wrote the first off as a typo but you used it like 4 times.

Not flaming you here. Just saying you should consider the info people, who have been down this road before, are offering you.
i get what your trying to say politely but your all still wrong so you guys can keep thinking ur all smarter then everyone online but your not

http://www.corsair.com/en-ww/blog/2014/april/aio_vs_diy_cooling

the deffinition of a aoi is what ur calling a CLC they are the same thing and the only difference between a AOI/CLC and a custom loop useally is a res and the fact you get to choose all the parts to your specs (yes u can get parts that can perform better then AOI/CLC but doesnt mean they will and also doesnt mean u wont have leaks

idk why you guys seem to think AOI's or if u mod a AOI you think u will be more pron to leaks serious get a job go talk to a plumber if it has pipes and hoses u can take them off anything and reattach to anything jesus guys chill out

and here a bit more for ya

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RMf6Zq-RAGU

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FyUvCOP7x60&t=304s

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e7SozhOTdFw

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s2NN4goi2DI

http://www.swiftech.com/aio.aspx

now plz tell me why im wrong by saying its a AOI again? or why chopping it up is a bad idea for leaks? other then swiftech has a built in res theirs no diff as stated before hand yes some company's change parts and some re brand the same crap so really again how was i false for saying anything i have said?

it is a AOI
it will perform the same (as proven in stress test already)
it can be modded (same chance to leak as any custom loop or high end AOI)

so what did i say was wrong? plz enlighten me
 
#16 ·
I must have missed the memo on AIO vs CLC cooling because as far as I know they are the same thing. They are just different terms that different manufacturers used for identical systems when they were first being released.
CLC - closed loop cooler
AIO - All in one

Corsair and EVGA use the term Closed loop cooler
http://www.corsair.com/en-gb/hydro-series-h100-extreme-performance-liquid-cpu-cooler
https://www.evga.com/articles/01081/evga-clc-liquid-cpu-cooler/

while NZXT and Cooler Master use AIO for the same type of device.
http://blog.nzxt.com/2017/04/what-is-all-in-one-water-cooling-and-why-should-you-do-it/
http://www.coolermaster.com/product/Lines/cpu-liquid-cooler/

An article describing the Fractal design expandable coolers as CLC's - They also use copper rads by the way.
http://techreport.com/news/26581/fractal-design-new-liquid-coolers-are-expandable-refillable

An article using both terms in the same sentence to describe a device.
https://www.pcworld.com/article/3164404/computers/evga-splashes-into-cpu-chilling-with-new-closed-loop-liquid-coolers.html

Some people may have added a distinction between the terms but it seems the industry hasn't.

The comparing of flow rates in CLC systems to the specs of a pump like the D5 is rather pointless exercise. Because CLC pumps are built onto their (Extremely restrictive) water blocks it gives a slightly false impression when you compare a 60L/h clc to the 1200L/h unrestricted flow rate of a d5.
CLC systems use components tuned to the low power of the pumps. So they deliberately use very high restriction cold plates and so on to maximise the possible performance.
Its much like the slightly old fashioned now European style low flow water cooling vs American and more common now high flow. Older European water blocks were very restrictive and loop flow rates of 2L/h and under were considered normal. Its different ways of getting very similar results.
 
#17 ·
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ashcroft View Post

I must have missed the memo on AIO vs CLC cooling because as far as I know they are the same thing. They are just different terms that different manufacturers used for identical systems when they were first being released.
CLC - closed loop cooler
AIO - All in one

Corsair and EVGA use the term Closed loop cooler
http://www.corsair.com/en-gb/hydro-series-h100-extreme-performance-liquid-cpu-cooler
https://www.evga.com/articles/01081/evga-clc-liquid-cpu-cooler/

while NZXT and Cooler Master use AIO for the same type of device.
http://blog.nzxt.com/2017/04/what-is-all-in-one-water-cooling-and-why-should-you-do-it/
http://www.coolermaster.com/product/Lines/cpu-liquid-cooler/

An article describing the Fractal design expandable coolers as CLC's - They also use copper rads by the way.
http://techreport.com/news/26581/fractal-design-new-liquid-coolers-are-expandable-refillable

An article using both terms in the same sentence to describe a device.
https://www.pcworld.com/article/3164404/computers/evga-splashes-into-cpu-chilling-with-new-closed-loop-liquid-coolers.html

Some people may have added a distinction between the terms but it seems the industry hasn't.
Yeah, you definitely missed it.
The are not different terms for same thing.

Industry is AIO for entire selection of All in One coolers, including CLCs.

Industry is CLCs are a sub-group of AIO group.

If you want to get industry technical, any liquid cooling loop that is not open to the outside air is a closed loop.
Open loop would have an unsecured opening in it .. are open systems.
Closed loops are closed systems.
tongue.gif

For our purposes all CLC are AIOs, but not all AIO are CLC.

Swiftech Hxxx series, be quiet! Silent Loop series, Fractal Design Kelvin series and Alphacool Eisbaer are air AIOs, but not CLCs. They all have threaded fittings, copper radiator quality hose and a fill port.

All Asetek, CoolIT, Apaltek are in the CLC sub-group of AIOs.

The new Fractal Design Celcius is a hybird CLC with threaded fittings on aluminum radiator but not on pump block and no fill port.
 
#18 ·
Well that's exactly right all water cooling loops are closed loops, and all pre-filled systems are all in one. So its a distinction that doesn't make sense. Just like I see people describing closed loop coolers vs "open loop systems". In complex cooling systems the closed loop cools or heats the open through a heat exchanger. Like a solar hot water system for example, the open loop is the hot water taps.

Some people on this forum may have decided to use the terms for different things but I don't see that being the case everywhere.
There are examples of "Expandable CLC's" and "Expandable AIO's" if there was a difference one wouldn't exist and the other wouldn't need to be called expandable.
 
#19 ·
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ashcroft View Post

Well that's exactly right all water cooling loops are closed loops, and all pre-filled systems are all in one. So its a distinction that doesn't make sense. Just like I see people describing closed loop coolers vs "open loop systems". In complex cooling systems the closed loop cools or heats the open through a heat exchanger. Like a solar hot water system for example, the open loop is the hot water taps.

Some people on this forum may have decided to use the terms for different things but I don't see that being the case everywhere.
There are examples of "Expandable CLC's" and "Expandable AIO's" if there was a difference one wouldn't exist and the other wouldn't need to be called expandable.
Makes perfect sense to me .. and anyone who has enough sense to understand the difference just as I explained it above. All CLCs are part of the AIO parent group, but not all AIOs are part of CLC sub-group.

Swiftech Hxxx series, be quiet! Silent Loop series, Fractal Design Kelvin series and Alphacool Eisbaer are air AIOs, but not CLCs. They all have threaded fittings, copper radiator quality hose and a fill port for adding/changing coolant.

All Asetek, CoolIT, Apaltek are in the CLC sub-group of AIOs. CLCs are factory sealed with no provision to expand or adding coolant.

It's not about what you see other people discribing. It's about what is real and what is made up. Lots of people claim their CLCs keep their system cooler than room ambinent and that they are so quiet they cannot be heard .. but that does not make it true or accurate.
tongue.gif


No, solar hot water system is not open loop because it has hot water taps.
doh.gif

.
Facts are all CLCs are a sub-group of AIOs .. and some AIOs are definitely not CLCs.
 
  • Rep+
Reactions: delerious
#21 ·
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jyve View Post

Well I tried. I thought I was even pretty polite about it but he appears to have made up his mind and is going to do what he wants to do.

To compare an asetek clc to a custom loop IS pretty ridiculous though.
Do a quick 30 second, badly lit YouTube video instead of typing it. This would give what you say full credibility with your target audience.
tongue.gif
 
#22 ·
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jyve View Post

Well I tried. I thought I was even pretty polite about it but he appears to have made up his mind and is going to do what he wants to do.

To compare an asetek clc to a custom loop IS pretty ridiculous though.
Yeah, almost as crazy as saying Swittech Hxxx are CLCs.
rolleyes.gif

We can give them the info, but we can't make them see/understand truth and fact.
"There's a sucker born every minute" comes to mind. Some have serious identity ten tea qualities.
biggrin.gif
 
#24 ·
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jinx1586 View Post

i get what your trying to say politely but your all still wrong so you guys can keep thinking ur all smarter then everyone online but your not

http://www.corsair.com/en-ww/blog/2014/april/aio_vs_diy_cooling

the deffinition of a aoi is what ur calling a CLC they are the same thing and the only difference between a AOI/CLC and a custom loop useally is a res and the fact you get to choose all the parts to your specs (yes u can get parts that can perform better then AOI/CLC but doesnt mean they will and also doesnt mean u wont have leaks

idk why you guys seem to think AOI's or if u mod a AOI you think u will be more pron to leaks serious get a job go talk to a plumber if it has pipes and hoses u can take them off anything and reattach to anything jesus guys chill out

and here a bit more for ya

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RMf6Zq-RAGU

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FyUvCOP7x60&t=304s

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e7SozhOTdFw

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s2NN4goi2DI

http://www.swiftech.com/aio.aspx

now plz tell me why im wrong by saying its a AOI again? or why chopping it up is a bad idea for leaks? other then swiftech has a built in res theirs no diff as stated before hand yes some company's change parts and some re brand the same crap so really again how was i false for saying anything i have said?

it is a AOI
it will perform the same (as proven in stress test already)
it can be modded (same chance to leak as any custom loop or high end AOI)

so what did i say was wrong? plz enlighten me
Can you link to these stress tests? I would really like to see tests where any commercially available preconfigured AIO matches a custom loop.

Just ignore the definitions for a minute as I think they may be confusing the issue here.

When you use two pumps, you should only do so when a single larger pump will not perform the task. Using the two pumps from two AIO units is not as good as one larger pump. The larger pump would be able to handle the higher static pressure while also delivering more flow rate. At the same time, a custom solution will have all brass, copper, and nickel parts, and will be less likely to corrode over time.

Unless both of these AIO units are free, I don't recommend you go out of your way to buy them. They will not deliver the same flow rate or performance as a properly specified custom solution, and you have already outgrown them before you even install them if you are looking at modifying them.
 
#25 ·
im just gunna say this first on prime 95 the one guy in a vid i linked with a 120 maelstrom only hit 46c under full load so a 240 would perform better.... inless u put more rad and so on i dout gunna getting much more performance outa that system just saying

and lastly anything that was put together in a factory can be taken apart thefor doing so doesnt up the chance of leaks nore does it mean it "cant" be modded to add anything i like

but again thanks for going off topic from the question that was asked..

also you saying CLC is a sub title from AOI right? well who the hell cares its the same crap u say the diff is its a closed loop and your right i agree cept once i take the hose off its no longer closed it is? and since the hoses are made to be able to come off it was never permanently closed what it? so again argue all you want but if i can take it apart it was never closed so its still a AIO since its a all in one system that performs amazingly and cost less then half of 90% of most on the market

anyways im done and out builds moving forward with useing this AIO and modding it into a custom loop
 
#26 ·
Quote:
Originally Posted by doyll View Post

Makes perfect sense to me .. and anyone who has enough sense to understand the difference just as I explained it above. All CLCs are part of the AIO parent group, but not all AIOs are part of CLC sub-group.

Swiftech Hxxx series, be quiet! Silent Loop series, Fractal Design Kelvin series and Alphacool Eisbaer are air AIOs, but not CLCs. They all have threaded fittings, copper radiator quality hose and a fill port for adding/changing coolant.

All Asetek, CoolIT, Apaltek are in the CLC sub-group of AIOs. CLCs are factory sealed with no provision to expand or adding coolant.

It's not about what you see other people discribing. It's about what is real and what is made up. Lots of people claim their CLCs keep their system cooler than room ambinent and that they are so quiet they cannot be heard .. but that does not make it true or accurate.
tongue.gif


No, solar hot water system is not open loop because it has hot water taps.
doh.gif

.
Facts are all CLCs are a sub-group of AIOs .. and some AIOs are definitely not CLCs.
Yes mate, there are taps, you really nailed that one. That is the open part, just as I already stated in the post. There is also the closed loop that heats the open loop through a heat exchanger in the water heater.
doh.gif
Again, just as I mentioned in the post.



Or did you think the water comes from the main and is heated instantly by the sun before it comes out of the tap.
rolleyes.gif

Is that all clear enough now?
Does anyone have a little think before they post anymore?

Incorrectly used and made up terms are not facts, just convention.
This CLC and AIO convention you use is far from universally accepted it seems.

It also doesn't make much sense. They are all Closed loops and the 'AIO' systems that are expandable with fittings are by definition no longer all in one unit.
The CLC part at least makes some sence if you use closed to indicate sealed and not designed to be removed but that isn't the original way it was used.
 
This is an older thread, you may not receive a response, and could be reviving an old thread. Please consider creating a new thread.
Top