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[PCGAMER] PUBG exec contemplating 'further action' over Fortnite Battle Royale similarities

12K views 252 replies 68 participants last post by  BreakDown 
#1 ·
Quote:
We have also noticed that Epic Games references PUBG in the promotion of Fortnite to their community and in communications with the press. This was never discussed with us and we don't feel that it's right. The PUBG community has and continues to provide evidence of the many similarities as we contemplate further action.

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UPDATE 2: http://www.pcgamer.com/pubg-exec-clarifies-objection-to-fortnite-battle-royale-its-not-about-the-idea-itself-its-about-epic-games/
As we reported early on Friday, the release of Fortnite Battle Royale, a 100-player last-man standing game mode for Epic Games base-building FPS, drew criticism from PlayerUnknown's Battlegrounds' development team, specifically Bluehole VP and executive producer Changhan Kim. Bluehole's press release expressed concern that Fortnite "may be replicating the experience for which PUBG is known" and that Bluehole was contemplating "further action."

Bluehole contacted PC Gamer Friday evening to clarify its objection to Fortnite Battle Royale and explain in greater detail some of the statements made in the press release. I spoke with C.H. Kim tonight over Skype (he was in Tokyo), with marketing and events manager Sammie Kang providing translation and giving the final two responses.

We use Unreal Engine to develop PUBG, and we pay a large amount of royalties based on the size of our success to Epic Games

C.H. Kim, VP and executive producer
C.H. Kim: So the first thing that I'd like to clarify is that this is not about the battle royale game mode itself. There were other BR gamemodes earlier this year that were released, like last man standing or GTA 5's battle royale game mode, and we never raised an issue, and I think it's great that there's more competition and everyone should be able to create their own battle royale game mode, and it's not about the idea itself, it's about Epic Games, and that wasn't really clear [in the press release].

PC Gamer: So it's not the mode you guys have an issue with. From your statement or your press release earlier today, it said that there were similarities in the UI, and the other things mentioned were the gameplay and structural replication in the battle royale mode. Can you specify exactly, if you're not objecting to a battle royale mode in another game, then what do you mean by concerns about gameplay?

There are a lot of different issues but everyone else that released a battle royale game mode made their own thing, but it was Epic Games that made this game that is similar to us that has similar elements, and that's the concern, that it was Epic Games.

We use Unreal Engine to develop PUBG, and we pay a large amount of royalties based on the size of our success to Epic Games, and Epic Games always promoted their licensing models [saying] "We want to support the success indie developers", and [Bluehole is] this indie developer that has been the most successful one using the Unreal Engine this year, and that's the problem that I see.

So if, say, you had no real connection with Epic through the Unreal Engine, say you used another engine, or this battle royale mode was from some other company you don't have that connection with, it wouldn't be an issue? It's specifically because it's Epic and you licensed their engine, is that correct?

So, battle royale is just about last man standing, it's a simple game mode, and we're not claiming any kind of ownership over the game mode or genre itself, it's not for us to even comment. There were a lot of copycats in China and [in that] industry there is a lot of battle royale games that look exactly [the] same as ours, so we will definitely look into similarities if there are different products that are very similar to our game, but even before we actually looked deeper into how similar [Fortnite Battle Royale] is, we wanted to raise an issue because this is from Epic Games. We could be the biggest indie success story that they have and there will be other indie developers that aspire to succeed like us using Unreal Engine, and they would be concerned, right? So we just wanted to raise an issue and let people know that it can be a problem.

we're starting to have concerns that they're going to develop new features or improve something in the engine to support that battle royale gameplay, and then use it for their own game mode.

C.H. Kim
And in terms of a resolution you'd be satisfied with, what are you hoping or thinking that Epic could do with Fortnite's battle royale mode that would remove the objections you have?

Well, we would have to specifically talk about the details with Epic Games but we haven't been connected to their headquarters yet. So what I want to explain here is that PUBG might have really simple battle royale rules and systems, but we see that as Brendan's own idea and that game mode in PUBG belongs to Brendan. You know that Daybreak Games actually licensed this idea and worked with him to develop their game mode and [Bluehole] did license his idea as well. Not only [did we bring] him to Korea to hire him as the creative director, we licensed his idea to develop PUBG.

So we're not just taking someone else's idea. Bluehole's stance is that we respect and value the indie developer or modder's idea and we actually licensed it.

So what I think I'm hearing is you would like Epic to license their battle royale from you? Is that what I'm hearing?

What I think is, they should have at least came to us before making it and had a discussion with us.

So, there's another issue. We're going to get some technical support [from Epic], and we're going to work with them to make sure Unreal Engine better supports battle royale gameplay which requires 100 people in one session, and now we're starting to have concerns that they're going to develop new features or improve something in the engine to support that battle royale gameplay, and then use it for their own game mode.

But not give [the improvements] to you, even though you've licensed the engine, is that what you're saying? They'll develop technology that improves their battle royale but is restricted from you?

We could be afraid when we make new features in the engine by modifying it internally, that is not already available and public, that feature could be leaked, or other things could happen.

Prior to the press release you sent out about this issue, had you reached out to Epic through different channels?

So we didn't have any real discussions [with Epic] and we just found out through articles from the media and then it took us a long time to figure out what was going on because we found this out through media, and it took us a long time, and [Epic was] being really aggressive about making this into a standalone game that will be released on different platforms, and we thought we need to straighten things out here and then clarify some things.

It was just a bit surprising and disappointing to see our business partner using our name officially to promote the game mode

C.H. Kim
What is your next step? You're obviously hoping to get in contact with Epic at some point and start discussing your options.

So, yes, of course we want to start a discussion and we reached out to Epic Korea, and they have reached out to their headquarters based in the US, but we didn't get any response, and that might be because it's the weekend right now.

So, we just want to emphasize this only a problem because Epic Games is the company that makes the engine we use and we pay a large amount of royalties to them. And we had this business relationship and we had trust that we would be getting continued support, and we were looking forward to working more closely with them to get technical support, maybe develop new features. But our name was used to officially promote their game without our knowledge. There was no discussion. It was just a bit surprising and disappointing to see our business partner using our name officially to promote the game mode that is pretty similar to us and there was misunderstanding in the community that we're officially involved in the project.

When they used your name, was that in official promotional materials?

Sammie Kang: It was in their promotional video that was posted on Twitter and they would openly mention that they were fans of PUBG, we wanted to make this battle royale game mode, and that kind of gave the impression that we were officially involved in this.

So they were giving the impression that you guys were on board and were a part of this, and in no way were you.

Sammie Kang: Right, and there were players like, "Oh it's cool, now we get to play PUBG in Fortnite", and there was nothing we could do about it, because it was depicted that we were officially involved.
 
#2 ·
I do see the similarities as they are blaringly obvious, but I actually like the cartoony art-style and simplistic HUD much better in FBR.

PUBG started a trend of a arena survival shooter that a lot of devs will be mimicking because of it's success... Just like MOBAs in the past decade. What's the bid deal?
 
#3 ·
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Originally Posted by bajer29 View Post

I do see the similarities as they are blaringly obvious, but I actually like the cartoony art-style and simplistic HUD much better in FBR.

PUBG started a trend of a arena survival shooter that a lot of devs will be mimicking because of it's success... Just like MOBAs in the past decade. What's the bid deal?
PUBG didn't start a single thing. PUBG is another TwitchBaby asset flip that managed to get big due to Streaming.
 
#4 ·
I'll be honest, I didn't watch the ENTIRE video, but I did watch 2/3ds of it, and the only thing I gathered from it is that it is a cooler version of PUBG in terms of building and the world, but the aiming and the randomness of bullets even at close range is just awful. Can you only shoot from 3rd perspective and have your bullets go randomly left and right?
 
#5 ·
I dont think PUBG can sue over the battle royal format. The promotional aspect if the fort nite people go further maybe an issue here.

Quote:
We have also noticed that Epic Games references PUBG in the promotion of Fortnite to their community and in communications with the press.
 
#7 ·
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Originally Posted by PostalTwinkie View Post

PUBG didn't start a single thing. PUBG is another TwitchBaby asset flip that managed to get big due to Streaming.
While normally I agree with you Twinkie on a LOT of your posts, I don't think that PUBG only succeeded due to streaming. The game is genuinely fun and was fun before it had more than a mere 2k viewers. I think its success is mostly attributed to the fact that it is a game that actually gets updates constantly, and has genuinely fun mechanics compared to a lot of other BR style games. On top of it all, it is a REALLY fun game to watch, so streaming boosted it of course, but it wouldn't do that if the game wasn't fun to watch.

As for PUBG starting something, I think it did. Just like Apple didn't start the smartphone market, but it sure as hell started the smartphone craze. I think the same holds true for PUBG, it might not have started its genre, but it definitely started a trend.
 
#8 ·
Quote:
Originally Posted by CyberWolf575 View Post

While normally I agree with you Twinkie on a LOT of your posts, I don't think that PUBG only succeeded due to streaming. The game is genuinely fun and was fun before it had more than a mere 2k viewers. I think its success is mostly attributed to the fact that it is a game that actually gets updates constantly, and has genuinely fun mechanics compared to a lot of other BR style games. On top of it all, it is a REALLY fun game to watch, so streaming boosted it of course, but it wouldn't do that if the game wasn't fun to watch.

As for PUBG starting something, I think it did. Just like Apple didn't start the smartphone market, but it sure as hell started the smartphone craze. I think the same holds true for PUBG, it might not have started its genre, but it definitely started a trend.
Did you think it was right for Apple to sue Samsung over their smart phone similarities?

Interestingly, both games use the same engine, but look like night and day regarding aesthetics. Not sure it would be a good idea to sue a partner who's still working with you on a game.
 
#9 ·
Quote:
Originally Posted by CyberWolf575 View Post

While normally I agree with you Twinkie on a LOT of your posts, I don't think that PUBG only succeeded due to streaming. The game is genuinely fun and was fun before it had more than a mere 2k viewers. I think its success is mostly attributed to the fact that it is a game that actually gets updates constantly, and has genuinely fun mechanics compared to a lot of other BR style games. On top of it all, it is a REALLY fun game to watch, so streaming boosted it of course, but it wouldn't do that if the game wasn't fun to watch.

As for PUBG starting something, I think it did. Just like Apple didn't start the smartphone market, but it sure as hell started the smartphone craze. I think the same holds true for PUBG, it might not have started its genre, but it definitely started a trend.
Thank you... this.
Quote:
Originally Posted by keikei View Post

Did you think it was right for Apple to sue Samsung over their smart phone similarities?

Interestingly, both games use the same engine, but look like night and day regarding aesthetics. Not sure it would be a good idea to sue a partner who's still working with you on a game.
I don't think Apple should have sued Samsung. I don't think PUBG should pursue further action either. It's not like PUBG is going to lose any more players to FBR that they would organically lose over time. This type of competition fuels innovation.
 
#10 ·
Quote:
Originally Posted by keikei View Post

Did you think it was right for Apple to sue Samsung over their smart phone similarities?

Interestingly, both games use the same engine, but look like night and day regarding aesthetics. Not sure it would be a good idea to sue a partner who's still working with you on a game.
Oh, I'm not pro Apple by any means, I hate their closed of ecosystem and the milking they do. So no I do not agree that Apple should have sued Samsung, just like I don't think that Blue Hole should sue Epic gaming only because of similarities. Now, if I understand this correctly though, EPIC used actual PUBG content in ads, in which case that IS something you can sue over.
 
#11 ·
Quote:
Originally Posted by CyberWolf575 View Post

Oh, I'm not pro Apple by any means, I hate their closed of ecosystem and the milking they do. So no I do not agree that Apple should have sued Samsung, just like I don't think that Blue Hole should sue Epic gaming only because of similarities. Now, if I understand this correctly though, EPIC used actual PUBG content in ads, in which case that IS something you can sue over.
Is this the case?
 
#12 ·
Quote:
Originally Posted by keikei View Post

Did you think it was right for Apple to sue Samsung over their smart phone similarities?

Interestingly, both games use the same engine, but look like night and day regarding aesthetics. Not sure it would be a good idea to sue a partner who's still working with you on a game.
Difference here is that in the Apple V. Samsung cases, Apple runs the patent wars. Correct me if I'm wrong, but "battle royal" is not patented, nor realistically can be patented as it won't fit the prerequisites for the patent.

I practice family law, and my basic knowledge of patents, copyright law and trademarks only run as far as the two courses I took back in law school, but I don't think that you can "patent" gameplay mechanics as an invention, nor copyright gameplay mechanics in it's most simplistic form. If I was to guess, then gameplay genre and the associated gameplay mechanics that are usually attributed to said genre would be akin to different literature of movie genres. Other than the mechanics that are associated with the sub-genre of the FPS known as "battle royal", the art direction is different, the name is certainly different, some gameplay elements are different, so I don't think that PUBG dev has any claim as to that.

Now, using PUBG as a direct comparison in Epic's advertisement would require to dive into the laws concerning marketing and advertisement which wildly vary by country, some countries prohibit direct comparisons in their ads and ad campaigns, some are ok with it.
 
#13 ·
Legalities aside, I find it mad scummy epic games help develop the battle royal mode behind pubg's back. They couldve mentioned it a business courtesy. Better to ask for forgiveness right?
 
#14 ·
Quote:
Originally Posted by PostalTwinkie View Post

PUBG didn't start a single thing. PUBG is another TwitchBaby asset flip that managed to get big due to Streaming.
Well, it didn't start a thing because it wasn't the first BR game on the market, but you're alluding to some sort of perceived lack of merit, which sounds crazy to me. Do you really think streaming alone can maintain a game CONSECUTIVE MONTHS as Steam's best seller and break the record for concurrent players online? I'm more inclined to believe it has to do with what the game has to offer, even though it's still far from perfect in implementation.
 
#16 ·
Quote:
Originally Posted by bajer29 View Post

Is this the case?
I don't know if it is. I was just stating that from what I read, that's what I understood. They used PUBG as a comparison in their ads. Now I don't know the exact legality aspects of it, but I don't think that's something you can do here in the U.S. If I am wrong, then they have nothing to sue over. In either case, I don't think Blue Hole will do anything regarding this, there is no case really.
 
#17 ·
Quote:
Originally Posted by PostalTwinkie View Post

PUBG didn't start a single thing. PUBG is another TwitchBaby asset flip that managed to get big due to Streaming.
You're not wrong, though I don't believe it was the main reason the game got popular. This guy had a BR game mod on ARMA before even H1Z1 did it. He was smart and got a bunch of H1Z1 streamers to play his game... It was better.
 
#18 ·
Battlegrounds literally looks like Stalker or any game with survival in mind,just online. And they think they have any grounds to take "further action"? Just LOL.
lachen.gif
 
#20 ·
Maybe Battle Royale makers should sue Bluehole instead. Yeah lets everyone sue everyone for everything so the lawyers can make a living, US style.
With this philosophy, Blizzard will sue them for graphics similarity, everyone will get sued by Japanese for Battle Royale, that building aspect has been in other games before so let's sue them for that as well, and so on. Don't forget weapon names, looks, designs, anything, literally.
 
#22 ·
Quote:
Originally Posted by Assirra View Post

Well somebody is scared of someone else stealing the spotlight.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JackCY View Post

Maybe Battle Royale makers should sue Bluehole instead. Yeah lets everyone sue everyone for everything so the lawyers can make a living, US style.
With this philosophy, Blizzard will sue them for graphics similarity, everyone will get sued by Japanese for Battle Royale, that building aspect has been in other games before so let's sue them for that as well, and so on. Don't forget weapon names, looks, designs, anything, literally.
I think you're all just jumping to conclusions without realizing what exactly they would be suing over. Get off your high horse people, and learn to comprehend. It's not the GAME design or anything in that regard, it's the fact that they used the PUBG name in the ads, which IS ground for suing.
 
#23 ·
Quote:
Originally Posted by erocker View Post

You're not wrong, though I don't believe it was the main reason the game got popular. This guy had a BR game mod on ARMA before even H1Z1 did it. He was smart and got a bunch of H1Z1 streamers to play his game... It was better.
I'm pretty sure H1Z1 pulled him over to make the game mode in their game as well. IIRC this guy is the father of this "genre" and has had a hand in every popular game that has it to this point.
 
#24 ·
Quote:
Originally Posted by CyberWolf575 View Post

While normally I agree with you Twinkie on a LOT of your posts, I don't think that PUBG only succeeded due to streaming. The game is genuinely fun and was fun before it had more than a mere 2k viewers. I think its success is mostly attributed to the fact that it is a game that actually gets updates constantly, and has genuinely fun mechanics compared to a lot of other BR style games. On top of it all, it is a REALLY fun game to watch, so streaming boosted it of course, but it wouldn't do that if the game wasn't fun to watch.

As for PUBG starting something, I think it did. Just like Apple didn't start the smartphone market, but it sure as hell started the smartphone craze. I think the same holds true for PUBG, it might not have started its genre, but it definitely started a trend.
Oh, another Apple analogy....

What did PUBG do different over other BR games in terms of play/mechancis?

*crickets*

It isn't even the first mediocre video game to try and jump on the Hunger Games train. It is a vanilla BR experience with issues that show how young the developers are, it isn't some second coming like people claim it to be. The key to PUBG is that the developers knew they couldn't break any ground on game play, but they could break ground on how viewers watch. Funny enough, TB has a great video about this topic.



By comparison, what did the first iPhone do? Multi-gesture touch, ditching the fixed keyboard all other devices had. Video support, audio support, camera...etc. The original iPhone was an extreme departure in both form and function compared to the leading devices of the time.

Why do people keep pretending that 10 years ago the iPhone looked like every other phone? Stop!

PUBG took a known solid formula and approached it from the social aspect of it, which is obviously damn smart. They are rolling in cash! They basically did what Riot Games with League of Legends did around MOBA, far from inventing it, hardly strayed from the original. They just made it accessible for players and viewers.
 
#25 ·
Hmmm...I'm leaning towards bluehole suing here:
Quote:
After listening to the growing feedback from our community and reviewing the gameplay for ourselves, we are concerned that Fortnite may be replicating the experience for which PUBG is known
 
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