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post #1 of 13
Thread Starter 
Hello OC'ers,

Having read about Coffee Lake, the new CPU's for the mainstream platform to replace Intel socket Z270 and being able to have a 6 core CPU on this new platform seems really great BUT...

I don't know what the LGA # is yet but that doesn't matter much but I would like to ask is what will the new Coffee Lake platform give that the X299 platform won't? - Maybe more PCI-E lanes?

From reading Z97 with DMI 2 and 8 PCI-e lanes to the chipset along with X99 and Z170 having 20 chipset PCI-e lanes then Z270 having 24

OK, quicker single core performance but anything else?

I've collected some CPU's over the last few years such as 3930K / 5820K which are 6 core CPU's that will not be a world apart from the soon to be released 8700K

X299 platform has the 7900 X which will be similar performance near identical surely to the 8700K when it arrives.

It's been mentioned that there will be a new X370 platform so anyone wanting a new 6 core Coffee Lake will need to buy a new motherboard and won't be compatible with with Z270 - shame

Anyhow, just share some of your thoughts on this! and what you know about this release to come
post #2 of 13
Coffee Lake will be on the LGA1151 socket, but incompatible with 100- and 200-series chipsets. I wouldn't be surprised if the socket is different. Intel did that before with LGA2011.

The primary difference between Z370 and X299 will be the number of PCI-e lanes provided by the processor. Ever since Nehalem, Intel's mainstream processors have offered 16 PCI-e lanes. Ever since Ivy Bridge, Intel has been using PCI-e 3.0. The X58 chipset still provided the PCI-e lanes like previous chipsets. Starting with Sandy Bridge-EP, HEDT processors started providing the PCI-e lanes. When Intel brought six cores to a more affordable price point, they also segmented the HEDT market via PCI-e lanes with the i7-5820K providing only 28 PCI-e 3.0 lanes. If you wanted the full 40 PCI-e 3.0 lanes offered by Sandy Bridge-EP and Ivy Bridge-EP processors, you had to step up to the i7-5930K. Fast forward to Skylake-X and Intel segments the HEDT market a little more. On the plus side, they made eight cores more affordable than before; on the down side, they differentiate between i7 and i9 with PCI-e lanes so an eight-core i7-7820X only offers 28 PCI-e 3.0 lanes. Skylake-X i9 processors offer 44 PCI-e 3.0 lanes so at least Intel improved things a bit there.

The chipsets also provide PCI-e lanes. Z97 only offered 8 PCI-e 2.0 lanes. PCI-e 2.0 offers roughly half the bandwidth of the 3.0 revision. Z170 offers 20 PCI-e 3.0 lanes so bandwidth increased by about a magnitude of five. The limitations with these lanes is they can only be allocated up to four at a time. In other words, you won't be able to run 3-way SLI on a Z170 or Z270 motherboard without the use of a PLX chip. Those motherboard are more expensive than a lot of X99 and X299 motherboards so there's little sense in choosing a mainstream CPU if you plan on running a 3-way SLI setup. The main benefit from all these additional chipset lanes is more bandwidth for things like M.2 SSDs or PCI-e add-in cards like a capture card or wireless ethernet adapter or PCI-e SSD.

As far as Coffee Lake performance, I expect similar single-core performance to Skylake and Kaby Lake, but improved multi-core performance since the entire lineup has two additional cores. The biggest winner, in my opinion, will be budget builders essentially getting previous i5's for an i3 price. Mid-range and enthusiasts win as well, but budget builds will be more capable than ever before.

I'm sure Intel was planning on bringing more cores to mainstream with Coffee Lake since those rumors have been circulating for well over a year. Whether or not they're bringing Coffee Lake to market sooner than planned because of Ryzen's success isn't known, but I assume it certainly played a role.

I kind of feel sorry for anyone who built a Kaby Lake system. Less than a year after putting that thing together, Intel releases something much better. I didn't like how Intel gave Kaby Lake its own generation since it was merely an optimization. I thought they should have had Kaby Lake processors identified as iX-6X50. I don't think people would have been confused over whether an i7-6700K or i7-6750K would be better. It would have been akin to Devil's Canyon, an optimization of Haswell, keeping a similar numerical identifier as other 4th generation processors. Kaby Lake was the exact same thing for Skylake.

Now I'm really interested to see what Cannonlake will bring to mainstream. Will it be the first die shrink of the Skylake architecture? Will Intel bring more cores to mainstream? Will Intel increase PCI-e lanes in mainstream processors? All I know is we should want Zen 2 to be incredibly competitive.
post #3 of 13
Thread Starter 
Hi,

I always get a tad confused with all the code names for the CPU's but I do know 5930 K was Haswell-E

In my own way I've sort of thought that X370 & 8700 K would be a little like X99 but with more PCI-e lanes - I'll be keeping an eye on ZEN AMD Threadripper and would like a 1950 X at some point when prices drop a little.

What tricks would AMD have up it's sleeve to finely hone the ZEN architecture? - Or have they played their hand? - I speculated that TR4 will become TR4+ but if the architecture isn't improved then AMD may just bump the stock clocks but it already runs hot enough.

I'll keep an eye on the X370 as well but I've got enough Intel now with 5820 K etc......and whilst it may get left behind a little it will still to more than enough to get things done! -smile.gif
post #4 of 13
X370 is an AMD chipset. The 300-series chipset for overclocking unlocked Coffee Lake processors will likely be Z370. Z370 is likely going to be exactly like Z270, but supports Coffee Lake.

Zen 2 needs to improve IPC and probably reach higher clock speeds. If AMD can find a way to improve IPC by about 15% and can reach clock speeds similar to current Intel processors, AMD will have a potential winner on their hands. It will depend on what progress Intel makes with Cannonlake. It looks like Zen 2 will be on 7nm so they're skipping 10nm, which is what Intel will be using for Cannonlake. It's too early to tell what this will mean for performance, but they should be able to achieve greater power efficiency and performance per watt on the smaller lithography.

I'm not going to compare Coffee Lake to Threadripper because those are two different segments of the market. Threadripper competes against Skylake-X while Ryzen competes against Skylake, Kaby Lake, and soon Coffee Lake.

There's no concern over Intel HEDT platforms getting "left behind." X58 is still used by quite a few people since we didn't really have compelling upgrade options until recently. I personally considered upgrading to Skylake, but ultimately decided I didn't want to decrease core count. I looked at Skylake-X as an option, but by the time it released Coffee Lake was looming. I figure if I can keep my six cores at a lower price point, I'll go that route. Sandy Bridge-E and Ivy Bridge-E kind of got the short end of the stick since they weren't much of an improvement over Nehalem or Westmere. Those platforms are still alive and kicking today though.

With Intel releasing so many mainstream generations of processors, I wonder what will happen to HEDT. I wonder if they'll expand the Kaby Lake-X lineup to actually include high-end processors. I wonder if Coffee Lake-X will be more of the same we saw from Kaby Lake-X (mainstream processors on a HEDT socket without an iGPU) or is they simply add cores to the lineup.
post #5 of 13
Thread Starter 
Yes I remember now X370 is AMD AM4 - Z370 - My mistake

I do have 2 socket 775 Intel Q9450 but not any 1366 which is what I think you are referring to on X58 - But I know about the 3770 K and 3930 k Sandy Bridge / Ivy Bridge which I get muddled up but not to worry you know what I'm talking about.

Of course I'm familiar with Haswell / Haswell-E - G3258 / 4170 i3 / 4790 K / 5820 K / 5960 X and the Broadwell 6800 / 6850 K / 6950 X

There is so much performance with a lot of these processors that even the 4 core 4790 K pack a real punch and even more so for the 6 cores where they can be used.

There will be more choice I suppose for the mainstream.

Anyway how would AMD improve their IPC by 15%?
post #6 of 13
The same way Intel has done it: optimizations and die shrinks. I threw an arbitrary number out there, but that's about the amount of performance increase AMD will need to stay relevant. They can't let Intel run away with performance again or they'll lose all the ground they made up this year. Zen 2 appears to be slated for a release around the same time as Cannonlake so it will need to be competitive with that.
post #7 of 13
Thread Starter 
Ah OK - What sort of time frame are we looking at?

Cannonlake - Yet another code name - thinking.gif - Is this for the HEDT? - Succeeding Skylake X (eg 7900X etc..?)

============================

On a different note if you have a moment spare would you comment on this query

Overclock.net › Forums › Components › Hard Drives & Storage › SSD › SATA Express drives

It's the final post about SSD adapter and as you seem to know your stuff it'll be easy for you - thanks if you do ! - smile.gif
post #8 of 13
Any HEDT platform will have an -X suffix moving forward. Previously the suffix was -E. I expect the next HEDT family of processors will be Coffee Lake-X or Cannonlake-X. I'm more inclined to believe Cannonlake-X because Intel hasn't made a habit of making more than two generations on a process for HEDT. I don't really consider Kaby Lake-X another generation since it was release with Skylake-X. Cannonlake will be the long-awaited die shrink for Skylake, but should keep the additional cores Coffee Lake is bringing to mainstream.
post #9 of 13
Thread Starter 
Hi Chessmyantidrug,

I've found this about the future of the mainstream platform

https://hothardware.com/news/intels-core-i7-8700k-coffee-lake-monster-easily-overclocks-to-48ghz-on-air

A reference to Ice Lake and an 8 core CPU on 10 nm - People have been asking for more cores on enthusiast platform for a while so if I chip in with my 2 cents and say that with the extra features available like more PCI-e lanes and a 6 core CPU it gives the benefit of what was available on X99 platform and blurs the boundary between HEDT and enthusiast, at least a little bit.
post #10 of 13
Intel offers several more cores on their HEDT platforms. The two Skylake-X i7's have six and eight cores while i9's have at least ten cores. The differentiation will be PCI-e lanes provided by the CPU.

Ice Lake is a good while away. It's the successor to Cannonlake, which isn't even on the horizon yet. Ice Lake will be their second generation of processors on the 10nm process. I won't really bother speculating what Ice Lake may or may not bring because we don't even know what Cannonlake will bring. I would not be surprised if they decide to match AMD in core count. There's no telling if AMD will want to increase core count as well.
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