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[Ars]Elon Musk’s Boring Company is digging a 10-mile tunnel in Maryland - Page 5

post #41 of 65
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Originally Posted by JackCY View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by warpuck View Post

Maybe he did not like the Friday afternoon traffic between BWI and DC. Congress would would like that. They like getting out of town quickly to the airport. Got stuck in that a few times going from Ft. McNair to FT Mead.
They are driving? Even rich YouTubers are flying not driving.

By the time people find parking or use alternative transportation to the airport, goes through check-in and the TSA groping screening, board, fly, deplane, and secure ground level transportation, they might as well have driven. I can drive 400 miles from the Phoenix, AZ area to North San Diego County in almost half the time it would take me to fly there plus I have my own transportation when I get there. It also costs many times less.
     
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post #42 of 65
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Originally Posted by rluker5 View Post

Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)
That is interesting and all, but that 10 mile test track is going to be close to the cost of one to several thousands of miles of highway. http://reason.com/blog/2017/10/18/baltimore-dc-maglev-train-costs https://www.thoughtco.com/rail-transit-projects-costs-2798796
I'm assuming that the mag lev vacuum tube deep in the ground train will cost significantly more than the mag lev outside train.
Maybe in the future when gov has enough money to pay it's debts off then we can afford such fancies. But now, the gov can't even maintain its current levels of debt.

Ignoring fiscal realities and pretending that we can have everything we can imagine and have our children pay later is irresponsible.

Do you seriously have no issue with false equivalence and drawing conclusions from fallacious input?

You have *literally* no idea how much this tunnel will cost. You then compare a study of a completely different proposal laden with graft from organizations who prey on the government budgets. One of the largest costs and burdens of surface projects like a huge train is securing the rights of way, which isn't super costly when you're 300+ feet below the surface.

You're desire for a fiscally conservative approach is admirable, but you clearly know little of the science or facts around this proposal so maybe you should educate yourself more before picking up that torch and pitchfork, ok?

You're going after the single largest government contractor for the entire *country* who would be trustworthy for actually trying to reduce taxpayer burden. Musk has literally already saved us *billions* of dollars.
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post #43 of 65
Elon Musk is the master of crony capitalism, we pay into a pot and it literally gets stolen before our eyes with useful idiots praising the thieves.
post #44 of 65
Quote:
Originally Posted by delboy67 View Post

Elon Musk is the master of crony capitalism, we pay into a pot and it literally gets stolen before our eyes with useful idiots praising the thieves.

And how did you arrive at that curious conclusion?
     
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post #45 of 65
Quote:
Originally Posted by delboy67 View Post

Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)
Elon Musk is the master of crony capitalism, we pay into a pot and it literally gets stolen before our eyes with useful idiots praising the thieves.

Considering it says you're in Ireland, what 'pot' are you paying into that is being stolen before your eyes by Musk? Musk's track record is literally saving the taxpayers of the United States billions of dollars over cruft riding crony capitalists at the ULA.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lady Fitzgerald View Post

And how did you arrive at that curious conclusion?

+1, this aught to be good.
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post #46 of 65
Quote:
Originally Posted by Avonosac View Post

Considering it says you're in Ireland, what 'pot' are you paying into that is being stolen before your eyes by Musk? Musk's track record is literally saving the taxpayers of the United States billions of dollars over cruft riding crony capitalists at the ULA.
+1, this aught to be good.
Here's some stuff I got from a quick web search:
www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-hy-musk-subsidies-20150531-story.html
www.latimes.com/business/autos/la-fi-electric-cars-20130506-story.html
www.nationalreview.com/article/397162/tesla-and-its-subsidies-phil-kerpen
www.zerohedge.com/news/2017-09-25/how-california-enabled-tesla-forcing-competitors-subsidize-losing-business-model

Common theme is that even in Ireland, if delboy67 buys a car, part of what he paid goes to subsidize rich Tesla buyers due to the zev credit system, and that doesn't address any "green economy" subsidies.

What's this about Tesla saving the gov, and/or non tesla buyers money? Haven't come across that. I probably don't read enough sources.
I still wouldn't buy one if I could though. I don't want to factor free electricity into the cost since I can't count on that over the life of a car and I would be a leech to take it.
post #47 of 65
Quote:
Originally Posted by rluker5 View Post

Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)
Here's some stuff I got from a quick web search:
www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-hy-musk-subsidies-20150531-story.html
www.latimes.com/business/autos/la-fi-electric-cars-20130506-story.html
www.nationalreview.com/article/397162/tesla-and-its-subsidies-phil-kerpen
www.zerohedge.com/news/2017-09-25/how-california-enabled-tesla-forcing-competitors-subsidize-losing-business-model

Common theme is that even in Ireland, if delboy67 buys a car, part of what he paid goes to subsidize rich Tesla buyers due to the zev credit system, and that doesn't address any "green economy" subsidies.

What's this about Tesla saving the gov, and/or non tesla buyers money? Haven't come across that. I probably don't read enough sources.
I still wouldn't buy one if I could though. I don't want to factor free electricity into the cost since I can't count on that over the life of a car and I would be a leech to take it.

I see. Do you have something on those subsidies of oil gas extraction too ?
Just to have fair 2-sided discussion.
Thanks.
post #48 of 65
Quote:
Originally Posted by BobiBolivia View Post

I see. Do you have something on those subsidies of oil gas extraction too ?
Just to have fair 2-sided discussion.
Thanks.
I will reply with gas tax, income tax, property tax. But I won't try too hard since my statement wasn't about the complete picture of costs and subsidies of the energy industry, it was about Musk getting subsidies one way or the other.
But you can go through the work of enlightening us on the facts and figures if you are inclined to spend the time to do it. It would only be fair if you did your part in the discussion.
post #49 of 65
Quote:
Originally Posted by rluker5 View Post

Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)
I will reply with gas tax, income tax, property tax. But I won't try too hard since my statement wasn't about the complete picture of costs and subsidies of the energy industry, it was about Musk getting subsidies one way or the other.
But you can go through the work of enlightening us on the facts and figures if you are inclined to spend the time to do it. It would only be fair if you did your part in the discussion.

No no, please do defend your statements with something approaching skin deep perhaps even something approaching a useful discussion of the topic. The amount of money subsidized to the EV market is literally a drop in a bucket when compared to the amount of money the government is paying out to subsidize the oil industry. You can't defend assertions of crony capitalism with waving hands when facts knock your claims down immediately. It isn't his job to MAKE your argument for you, it's yours.
Quote:
Originally Posted by rluker5 View Post

Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)
Here's some stuff I got from a quick web search:
www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-hy-musk-subsidies-20150531-story.html
www.latimes.com/business/autos/la-fi-electric-cars-20130506-story.html
www.nationalreview.com/article/397162/tesla-and-its-subsidies-phil-kerpen
www.zerohedge.com/news/2017-09-25/how-california-enabled-tesla-forcing-competitors-subsidize-losing-business-model

Common theme is that even in Ireland, if delboy67 buys a car, part of what he paid goes to subsidize rich Tesla buyers due to the zev credit system, and that doesn't address any "green economy" subsidies.

What's this about Tesla saving the gov, and/or non tesla buyers money? Haven't come across that. I probably don't read enough sources.
I still wouldn't buy one if I could though. I don't want to factor free electricity into the cost since I can't count on that over the life of a car and I would be a leech to take it.

Who said 'Tesla' saving the government money? I said Musk saving the government money, which is as stated on the order of billions.

Some reading for you on the topic.

https://arstechnica.com/science/2016/03/ula-executive-admits-company-cannot-compete-with-spacex-on-launch-costs/
https://arstechnica.com/science/2017/06/air-force-budget-reveals-how-much-spacex-undercuts-launch-prices/
https://www.engadget.com/2017/06/16/us-air-force-spacex-ula-launch-costs/
http://fortune.com/2017/06/17/spacex-launch-cost-competition/

So how exactly is he a crony capitalist when he *could* simply undercut ULA by 50m, pocket an additional quarter billion dollars per launch of profit and still land every contract? Even without the guaranteed 1 billion dollars a year for existing which is granted to the ULA to maintain its ability to launch. I've even included a link which is critical of the assertion of this as a subsidy, but what you can't refute is the fact that the ULA gets this money to maintain what spacex needs to maintain on its own budget, while charging 300 million dollars less per launch.

Now regarding the subsidies of the EV market, which is so reprehensible to some, how about we discuss how the oil industry is still being subsidized, almost a century after it has fully developed its market dominance and has been spending on infrastructure upgrades ever since. How about we compare non subsidized electric vs non subsidized gasoline and see which is better? How about compare that without ignoring the damage of pollution and emissions?

And how is a part of the package you paid for (the free fill ups) a "leeching" situation?

Heres the thing, I don't want to sound combative but if you don't actually know what you're talking about as you admit why are you making assertive statements as if you did? Ask questions, people would be more than happy to help you learn without needing to refute the claims you're making.
Edited by Avonosac - 10/22/17 at 2:50pm
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post #50 of 65
Quote:
Originally Posted by Avonosac View Post

No no, please do defend your statements with something approaching skin deep perhaps even something approaching a useful discussion of the topic. The amount of money subsidized to the EV market is literally a drop in a bucket when compared to the amount of money the government is paying out to subsidize the oil industry. You can't defend assertions of crony capitalism with waving hands when facts knock your claims down immediately. It isn't his job to MAKE your argument for you, it's yours.

--- snip ---

I am usually well-capable of defending myself, but I just wasn't sure how to do it in this particular case.
You did it in most efficient way, and I thank you for that.


Now for the topic itself:
Quote:
Originally Posted by rluker5 View Post

But you can go through the work of enlightening us on the facts and figures if you are inclined to spend the time to do it. It would only be fair if you did your part in the discussion.

Well, I used some Google-Fu skills, and found this link - http://priceofoil.org/fossil-fuel-subsidies/ .
I will not discuss whether it's some legit source or not, but I will put here just a part of article:

Quote:
As of October 2017, Oil Change International estimates United States fossil fuel exploration and production subsidies at $20.5 billion annually. Other credible estimates of annual United States fossil fuel subsidies range from $10 billion to $52 billion annually – yet none of these include costs borne by taxpayers related to the climate, local environmental, and health impacts of the fossil fuel industry.

So USA alone are subsidizing oil industry by 4 times of anual goverment subsidies for Tesla. (per your LA Times link)
And here is party bonus:

Quote:
Internationally, governments provide at least $775 billion to $1 trillion annually in subsidies, not including other costs of fossil fuels related to climate change, environmental impacts, military conflicts and spending, and health impacts.


I am having a really hard time to understand, why is it fair in your eyes to blame Tesla taking subsidies, and playing blind against other sizable subsidies.
If USA alone would drop 3/4 of those $20.5 billion directly at car makers and all those parties involved in eletric motors/batteries/fuel cells research, I bet we would be already half way done against complete cease of oil extraction.

Better yet - if all those countries would drop only 1/2 of those $1 trillion to research of solar energy harvesting, improving fuel cells design, or exploring new materials for batteries/super-capacitors - we would be already flying in planes which are ZERO emission.

Looking forward to hear from you.
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