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Evga G2 series concerns

post #1 of 21
Thread Starter 
I found this thread on LinusTechTips forum:

The EVGA G2 lineup is considered by many to be very high quality, the P2 considered fantastic, but the latest testing by professional reviewers shows that some or perhaps all of these units have a serious flaw that won't harm the PSU but could harm your other hardware. It's important to explain the concepts before anything. Very few reviewers test for this stuff - Aris, who does power supply reviews on Tomshardware and Techpowerup, very recently started a new test. This new test shows that many units have newly revealed flaws, and this problem exists with the EVGA G2 and P2 lineup. The EVGA G2 series is a direct copy of the Superflower Leadex Gold series. The EVGA P2 series is a direct copy of the Superflower Leadex Platinum series.
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Old Hold-Up Time Tests

In the past, most power supply reviewers would test "hold-up time" as the amount of time from when there is AC loss (i.e. power outage) to when the unit shuts off, while under full load. For example, if a power supply is under 100% load and there is a power outage, if it takes 20ms for the power supply to shut off, it would be defined as having a hold-up time of 20ms. However, this is not an actual test with what hold-up time really is, and new tests reveal new realities. The old hold-up time tests are not in exact accordance with the definition of hold-up time.

Hold-Up Time

Hold-up time is defined as the time period from when there is AC loss to when a voltage goes below ATX specification. The ATX specification for the 12V rail is from 11.4V to 12.6V. So if there is AC loss and it takes a power supply 20ms until its 12V voltage gets down to 11.4V, then 20ms is the hold-up time. Some people incorrectly define hold-up time as the time between AC loss and when the power supply shuts off. This is incorrect; a power supply may actually shut itself off after hold-up time. Hold-up time is strictly the amount of time from AC loss until a voltage goes out of specification.

AC_LOSS to PWR_OK_OFF

When there is AC loss, the voltage outputs of the power supply begin to drop to lower numbers. It is the job of the circuitry of the power supply to detect this and shut off the unit before the voltages go below the ATX specification. Basically, under-voltage protection. Before any of those voltages go out of specification, the power supply is supposed to cut the PWR_OK signal. The PWR_OK signal is a cable in the main 24-pin ATX cable used to communicate with the motherboard. When on, it's telling the motherboard that its voltages are all safe. When the PWR_OK signal is cut, circuitry is supposed to shut off the power supply as fast as possible so the voltages don't go out of specification.

The latest testing methods in renowned power supply reviews are AC_LOSS to PWR_OK tests. This tests the duration of time it takes from there being AC loss to the computer dropping the PWR_OK signal. So, for example, if there is a power outage, your computer is under full load, and your power supply has an AC_LOSS to PWR_OK time of 18ms, then in 18ms your power supply will tell your motherboard, "Hey! Voltages are about to get low. Better shut me off now." And then the unit will be shut down quite rapidly once the PWR_OK signal is dropped.

There is a catch though: some power supply units drop the PWR_OK signal after the voltages go out of specification. This means when there is AC_LOSS, the power supply will continue providing the computer with energy as those voltages go deeper and deeper below the ATX specification. Once it gets to a certain low point, then it'll cut the PWR_OK signal, after harm has already been done. In a way, this is a cheating method used by power supply manufacturers to do well on old hold-up time tests that check the duration of AC_LOSS to PSU shutdown time. This cheating method is also dangerous.


EVGA G2 550 Flaw

The EVGA 550 G2 has this exact flaw. It drops the PWR_OK signal at 10.8V. This information can be found at the Tomshardware Superflower Leadex Gold 550 review here: http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/super-flower-leadex-gold-550w-power-supply,4416-4.htm

"The hold-up time tests don't go well. Not only is the measured hold-up less than 16ms (the ATX spec's minimum), but the Power_OK signal drops after, and not before, the PSU's rails go out of spec. This means that your motherboard gets a false power-good signal from the PSU. Indeed, we measured the +12V rail floating at around 10.8V when Power_OK dropped to zero. This is a very low voltage level that applies lots of stress to the voltage regulators of components fed by +12V.

In a high-end PSU like this one, we didn't expect such nasty behavior. We have to admit that we're very disappointed by Super Flower's decision to drop the power-good signal so late, which is probably done to give the false impression that the hold-up time lasts longer. By the end of our review, this is going to cost to this PSU a lot of performance points. Whereas it might have received an award for performance, there's no way it will now."

Some of you may be thinking, "Oh, it's just 10.8V, no big deal." No, this is a big deal. Power supply experts like Aris (who did the above review) say it is a serious matter, as well as the experts on the Jonnyguru forums. It is a serious issue, and the EVGA 550 G2 should not be purchased because of it, especially in areas where there are frequent power outages.

It is important to note that Aris did do a review on the EVGA 550 G2 here, but that was before these new tests came about.


EVGA P2 Series Assumed Flaw

Most likely, the entire EVGA P2 lineup has the same issue, but right now it is merely speculation (but a pretty good one). The Superflower Leadex Platinum 550 review here: http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/super-flower-leadex-platinum-550w-power-supply,4281-4.html

This review was before the PWR_OK to AC_LOSS tests. Hold-up time was tested to be 13.8ms. That is below the ATX specification. There is no doubt in my mind that it probably drops the PWR_OK signal at 10.8V just like the EVGA 550 G2, in order to "cheat" and get good hold-up times on the old hold-up time tests.

EVGA T2 is Safe

The EVGA Titanium lineup has been tested and does not have this issue.

EVGA G2: Rest of Lineup

As of now, the non-550W versions of the EVGA G2 lineup may have these issues, but we cannot know for sure. Power supply experts are pretty confident the rest of the G2 lineup does have this problem, which is very important.

What to do Now?

Realize that sometimes units we think are incredible really are not. Everybody likes to go around forums talking about how fantastic the EVGA G2 lineup is, but with this problem, how can it be? It shouldn't make any high tier on any list, because Superflower cheats to get good hold-up time on old tests, and sets far too low under-voltage protection values. It is a serious matter, because the VRMs of all your hardware can be seriously affected by such a low voltage, 10.8V. There is a reason the ATX specification exists. 10.8V is two times out of the specification.




I bought Evga G2 850W last year. Because it is overkill for my setup (more futureproof) and it has 10 year warranty I will have it minimum for the next 10 years. Should I be worried because of this problem? I don`t want that this to cause any damage to my components....
Edited by SteelBox - 10/23/17 at 4:48am
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post #2 of 21
Unless you have frequent power outages its a non issue
If you are still worried buy a UPS
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post #3 of 21
This is pretty normal and known, many reviewers don't even bother or have the equipment to measure it right though it's not that hard at all.

I've had plenty power outtages over the years with my 850 G2, no problem. The PC keeps running a short while, but sure it's not pulling 850W.
This should be more targeted at the wanna be reviewers IMHO, without them the companies will get with a lot of crap as companies only care about issues when negative press is thrown at them. They don't care if a few enthusiasts dislikes their product but they change their tune when reviewers no longer want to advertise/give positive review to their product. Reviewtisers...
post #4 of 21
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by JackCY View Post

This is pretty normal and known, many reviewers don't even bother or have the equipment to measure it right though it's not that hard at all.

I've had plenty power outtages over the years with my 850 G2, no problem. The PC keeps running a short while, but sure it's not pulling 850W.
This should be more targeted at the wanna be reviewers IMHO, without them the companies will get with a lot of crap as companies only care about issues when negative press is thrown at them. They don't care if a few enthusiasts dislikes their product but they change their tune when reviewers no longer want to advertise/give positive review to their product. Reviewtisers...
Quote:
Originally Posted by shilka View Post

Unless you have frequent power outages its a non issue
If you are still worried buy a UPS

About how high number of power outtages are we talking about? 3-4 per month or more than 10?

So it is not a big deal? Usually in winter time I have ~3-4 power outtages in month, but mostly at night when computer is off, rarely at day....
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post #5 of 21
I run the G2 owners club and in all of the time the G2 has been around i have never heard anyone say anything about the hold up time being an issue
Lots of other PSU´s out there have awful hold up times and that never been a huge problem either

Some review sites dont even bother to test hold up time
If there are lots of outages a UPS is a solution
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post #6 of 21
Quote:
Originally Posted by shilka View Post

I run the G2 owners club and in all of the time the G2 has been around i have never heard anyone say anything about the hold up time being an issue
Lots of other PSU´s out there have awful hold up times and that never been a huge problem either

Some review sites dont even bother to test hold up time
If there are lots of outages a UPS is a solution
It could be a concern for people who run heavy distributed computing loads unattended, but isn't really something I can see affecting many people.



Sent from my ZTE Axon 7 Resurrection Remix.
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post #7 of 21
550w g2 user here. smile.gif
post #8 of 21
1300 G2 here (overkill leftover from when I was running two R9 390's). Never had an issue, this PSU has been rock solid.
     
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post #9 of 21
Thread Starter 
So let me conclude all this to see if I understood this because this is not my area rolleyes.gif

Small problem should only have people who will use PSU at 100% load like bitcoin miners?

In future if I buy Ryzen 7 - Zen2 + RX Vega 56 I should be around 50% of my PSU load. If during heavy gaming with that spec I have power outage there won`t be any problems, any fried components?

Mostly before I buy something I always look amazon and newegg reviews and Evga has really great users reviews, havent`t found anything of fried - destroyed components.

Is this "problem" only in these premium PSU level - it has bad reponse time in that level, comparing to middle range PSU level EVGA has better response time than most middle range PSU?
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post #10 of 21
I get the feeling you don't know how a PSU works :/ It won't fry anything, but it may supply lower voltage than required for a short period of time or report shut down sooner than speced. Sure having lower voltage and still being power_ok is bad. By all means buy a G2, load it to max, start cycling it and measuring. I'm all for raining hell on the manufacturers but it needs reliable data and sadly as Shilka said if you read reviews many don't even bother testing hold up time or do it wrong. My PSUs never get a power outage when they are at max load, so it's "fine", of course depends on how the power_ok reporting works and if it's set to drop at too low voltage that is bad but so far no issue.

If you're worried about hold up time, your best bet is to measure it on a unit you buy, or get a UPS.

All my outages are with the machine running. When it's off it's disconnected from power.
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