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Complete noob to WC attempting challenging build

808 views 26 replies 11 participants last post by  potato42 
#1 ·
Hello! I recently ordered a caselabs BH8 for a threadripper 1950x build and I've got it in my head to watercool this puppy. My goals for the build are to have a powerful video editing machine that is "future proof" for at least the next few years, reasonably portable since I may have need to take it with me every so often, and finally, bada$$! I want to create something more than the sum of the parts. Ideally I'll be able to get this up and running by Dec 8th - the deadline for caselabs build contest!

I've never water cooled a PC before, never used an AIO, and never built one NEARLY this expensive. In fact if my budgeting is right, I'll probably end up spending as much on the water cooling stuff as I did on my last build! (around $800). Now I have browsed around the forums here and I looked through the big sticky thread and links, but I noticed most of that info is quite old. I'm sure much of it is still relevant, but I have no idea what or if the water cooling industry has changed.

My primary concern right now is hard line tubing vs soft. I'd really like to go with hard line tubing, as that's what all the premium builds use, but I'm not sure how well I can expect it to hold up in transport which may be frequent. I'm not afraid of putting it together and I am a handy guy, but I also realize I may not get it all perfect off the bat. My secondary concern is how to optimally set up the loop including CPU and GPU in the very limited space of the BH8 case. The only two options I see for a reservoir would be a horizontally mounted res in the lower "basement" section, or a single bay reservoir. Further, I need to select a pump as well. Since it will reside on my desk, having a relatively inaudible system is important to me, so I suspect that will factor in to the Res/pump decision.

I would be grateful for whatever knowledge you can share or point me to, and I'm happy to follow useful links to learn more before I dive in.
 
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#2 ·
That's a pretty tall list of requirements on a short timeline considering you have never done this before. My biggest concern is your desire to make the system portable. I would think that soft tubing would generally be better in a portable system as you can really tighten the fittings.

What's your definition of reasonably portable? LAN party? Shipping from point A to B?
 
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#3 ·
Quote:
Originally Posted by pgdeaner View Post

I would think that soft tubing would generally be better in a portable system as you can really tighten the fittings.

What's your definition of reasonably portable? LAN party? Shipping from point A to B?
This is exactly the kind of thing I was wondering! I do most of my editing at home, though there may be occasions when I need to edit video offsite as well as the occasional LAN party type scenario. To put a number on it, lets say I'll be moving my computer once a month, well secured in an SUV. I'd rather have a durable and trouble free system that a pretty one - and that's the only advantage that I can see in hard tubing.

You're right in that it is a tall order! I've been doing my homework though, trying to get ahead as much as I can without having the case and components in front of me. If it looks like too much to get done by the 8th then I'll just take my time with it to make sure it's done right.
 
#4 ·
The BH8 is big, but still pretty small for watercooling. How much radiator space are you going to be using and where do you plan to mount them? There are more secure types of hardline fittings available if you want. The monsoon free center and chaingun fittings have the locking cap system making them stronger than anything, but they take a lot more work gluing caps and curing in sunlight. I'm using their EV2 fittings that have a small plastic ferule that makes it more secure than regular hardline fittings, but you can still pull the tube out with some force.

I also recommend custom length psu cables, especially if you want to mount a radiator in the bottom, it gets crowded down there real fast.

Here's a quick pic of mine. I ran into clearance issues trying to get a second rad mounted up top and I had a hard drive mounted in the bottom, but a single 240 does alright with a mild OC and loud fans.
tongue.gif

 
#5 ·
If you want to try hard line bending before water cooling with it,You can buy a cheap heat gun from harbor freight or any home improvement store.Get the smallest box of the hard line you like and play with bending it.You can free hand bending it but some companies make bending mandrel kits.And watch some youtube videos on how to do it and most cover what happens when you do things wrong.Soft tubing is easier but hard line looks so much better if you can do it.
 
#6 ·
Quote:
Originally Posted by andrewmp6 View Post

If you want to try hard line bending before water cooling with it,You can buy a cheap heat gun from harbor freight or any home improvement store.Get the smallest box of the hard line you like and play with bending it.You can free hand bending it but some companies make bending mandrel kits.And watch some youtube videos on how to do it and most cover what happens when you do things wrong.Soft tubing is easier but hard line looks so much better if you can do it.
You might want to add a silicon cord to put inside the hardline tube before bending.
 
#7 ·
Yes, its pointless without the silicon insert.

Some extra tips, try to avoid bends at the ends of the tubes, they won't go into the fittings properly.

If you have the tube straight at that last 10-15mm you should be okay though, I have 4 such bends in my loop, and it meant screwing the top of the fitting down whilst the body of the fitting is pushed on to the tube as it was impossible to screw the top down when the tube was fully inside the fitting.

Take the orings out of the fittings, this will make it much faster get your tube to an appropriate size/shape without risk of cutting the orings.
Don't forget to put them back in when you put it together.

Always use washing up liquid when you insert silicon tube, especially if you are putting it back into a tube with an already present bend as they can be tough to get in then.
If you make the end of the silicon insert more rounded you will find it will go in better into a tube with an already present bend.

With PETG, use the deburring tool on the ends, then some fine sandpaper on afterwards so they will slip into the fittings easier.
I always wash my tubes with hot water to get out the soap stains and other bits before I put them in the build.

Avoid applying heat to the tube ends directly, there is less structural support there, and the ends will deform out of their circular shape.

Using mandrels is a good idea, but I often have to tweak the bend to get a perfect 90 degrees.
The good thing with PETG is that you can reheat it lots of times to tweak the bends.

And for heating itself, use a low heat on the heat gun, heat the whole area of the bend, applying a bit more heat to the outside of the bend.
Don't forget to heat the sides of the bend and don't keep the heat on one area for too long or it can bubble (I've never had this happen though).
Takes about 20 seconds for a tube to change from solid to beginning to bend, then just apply heat as needed to make it floppy enough for the bend.
After making the bend hold it still for about 20 seconds, and don't put it in water, let it cool by itself.

The tubes can be very hot to touch so use gloves if the bend is near the end of a tube and you don't wanna burn your fingers.

And one other thing, check out the barrow V4 fittings, they have 3 orings in the body of the fitting, and 1 in the top bit that compresses down, so that really makes it a 4 oring fitting.
These hold the tubes better and minimise risk of leaks even more.
They are very good value fittings also, I would use these over bitspower even if they were the same price.
 
#8 ·
Wow thanks so much for all the info guys I really appreciate it! So the real nagging question is: Is hardline tubing any less secure or less durable than soft when it comes to moving and transporting a water cooled rig? Also are the fittings interchangeable at all between hard and soft tube, or do I need to decide one way or the other to get the right fittings? I'm not afraid of getting right into it, and I've watched some videos about the bending. I expect my runs to be relatively short given the limited space in the case.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Deedaz View Post

The BH8 is big, but still pretty small for watercooling. How much radiator space are you going to be using and where do you plan to mount them?
Well I guess this is the big reveal and what will make this build rather unique; I'm going to be using a Phobya Xtreme Quad 480/560 v.2 Radiator filling the top. I know that I will have all kinds of problems shoe-horning this beast of a radiator in there, but all the more reason to be proud when it's done
smile.gif
I figured it would be better to fit one big radiator rather than 2 smaller ones up there! I do plan to mod the case to a fully open top, and I ordered an extra top panel from caselabs for the purpose. I also ordered the extra top mount, though I'm not sure how well the standard mounts will work and I may need to go full custom for that too. I'm also concerned about the clearance between the radiator, fans, and the water block for the vega 64 gpu, which will be from watercool. I might only use 3 fans on the radiator (or a slim 15mm if it fits), leaving room for the fittings on the gpu block or my 'backup plan' is to use a cable riser for the pci-e slot and custom mount the gpu horizontally. This would create enough space for the huge radiator, and 4 standard fans.

For the reservoir I'm thinking more and more the simplest and cleanest solution is a single bay res and the model I'm looking at is the Koolance TNK-501. It looks like this would allow me to tip the case on it's back and fill directly from the front through the face of the res. As for the pump, I have not decided on that yet, but I'm leaning towards a D5 style pump with a custom top mounted in the basement section right where the SSD caddy would be between the PSU and the front I/O header. My tubing would run counter-clockwise looking at the front of the case, from pump, to res, to CPU to Rad, to gpu and then back to pump (or vice versa in the opposite direction but same order). This would keep everything fairly simple with short tubing throughout. I'm not even sure there would be a lot of visual difference between hard and soft tubing with the right fittings and layout due to the confines of this build.

I like the look of the new heatkiller IV block (in nickel) so I'll be trying that along with the matching gpu block. I want to also try the new gigabyte designare motherboard, so nickel accessories should look good. Because of the neutral tones of the case (black and gunmetal) and the motherboard along with my water cooling hardware, I can change color to the build easily by changing the coolant and my leds (the board has tons of led connectivity). I also intend to purchase some custom PSU cables, but that may not happen right away.

I'm sure this all sounds quite ambitious, but I welcome any and all constructive input especially recommendations that will get me where I need to be with this build!
 
#10 ·
I will just explain a few things here.
Fittings are not interchangeable between hard and soft tubing. They work on opposite principles.

For soft tubing, the ID=inner diameter and OD=outer diameter are both important for the fittings you get (unless you have barbs, then only ID matters). The tube squeezes over the fitting and the compression part squashes the outside of the fitting. 1/2"-3/4" is a good size as it has a thick wall that is hard to kink.

For hard tubing only the OD matters. Don't mix mm's and inches when buying hardline tubing and fittings. If the tubing OD is in mm make sure fittings are in mm. Similarly if it's inches make sure fittings are in inches.
The whole tube fits inside the fitting and is supported by up to 4 orings. The outer oring is placed around the tube itself and after you screw down the compression part it becomes very rigid. Similarly to barb fittings you can get simple push in fittings with no compression ring, but I personally prefer as much safety as possible.

I think hard tubing could be more reliable than soft, with soft tubing the tube ends lose their original tightness over time and seem to flare out. I've never had one leak, I'm just saying they don't sit on the fitting quite as snuggly as when they are put on. The compression ring should keep it tight though.

On the other hand it depends what hardline fittings you are using. The barrow V4 compression fittings are my personal recommendation.

For the pump I would avoid a bayres/pump combo as you can't control the vibrations too well.
I actually have the pump in the basement on sponge connected to 2 soft tubes (The rest is hardline) this gives the minimum vibration really.

A long tube res is good for bleeding out bubbles, as opposed to a short tube res, but not all cases have the space. I think most professional watercooled use some sort of tube res and not a bay res, partially for aesthetics too.
 
#11 ·
I personally would not repeatedly transport hard line tubing builds because hard line is not as secure as properly wrench tightened soft tubing. In 17+ years of water cooling, the only leak testing I do with soft tubing is watching it while filling, never had a leak, never will (unless I forget to put O ring on or something stupid). I use 3/8 ID, 5/8 OD with same compression fittings, and wrench the fittings down all the way, ie swiftech way. I can put the fitting in a vice and pull on the tubing, and the tubing tears before pulling out of the fitting. If you hand tighten fittings, then soft isnt any more secure than hard, but I personally wouldnt transport hand tightened soft tubing either.

I have tried 3 different hard line tubing/fittings, and all hold onto the PETG tubing with just pressure of the O ring (manufactures afraid of cracking PETG with true compression fittings that dig into tubing). Even wrenching the fitting down as far as possible, one can easily pull hard line tubing right out of the fitting, granted sometimes destroying O ring.

I built mine in hardline a while back, after 30 mins of learning to bend, its just as fast and easy as using soft tubing. Hard line looks much better. But I lifted up on top of my case (pretty hard) to fix something which distorted the hardline and pulled it right out of the fitting, hadnt filled the loop yet. Then I spent weeks buying small quantities of different combinations, ie EK fitting/tubing, then primochill rev fitting/tubing, trying to find something that would withstand torqing/pulling, but nothing currently does.

I transport mine all the time, I went back to bitspower compression/primochill soft tubing, which I can wrench down and yank/pull/torque and never going to ever leak.

You might be fine with transporting hard line depending on how careful you are, but it is definitely not as secure as properly wrenched down soft tubing. But soft tubing cant compare in aesthetics to hard line. My next build I may do in hardline, take pics, then redo in soft
smile.gif
 
#12 ·
Quote:
Originally Posted by opt33 View Post

I have tried 3 different hard line tubing/fittings, and all hold onto the PETG tubing with just pressure of the O ring (manufactures afraid of cracking PETG with true compression fittings that dig into tubing). Even wrenching the fitting down as far as possible, one can easily pull hard line tubing right out of the fitting, granted sometimes destroying O ring.
You do understand how hardline fittings work, right? Of course you'll be able to pull a tube out of a fitting when you're pulling directly on the tube. Now go ahead and put a fitting on both ends and sandwich it between 2 components that are bolted down. How successful are you at pulling that tubing out now? Your example is ridiculous and does not have any true significance in real world situations.

And cranking down soft tube fittings with a wrench....Just lol.
 
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#13 ·
@potato42

As an analogy, look at a car - hoses (soft tubing) are used quite frequently. Ask the most dedicated hardline enthusiast if they would build a hard line setup and warrant it to work in an automotive environment for 10 thousand miles, even if the environment was kept at a constant room temperature. I bet you wouldn't have many takers
smile.gif


Hard line looks better, but it requires you rely on a weaker mechanical connection. Whether or not that's good enough is up to you, but I wouldn't personally recommend transporting a hard line system without leak testing it at it's destination.

Hard line or not, you're looking at a case that you can cram 2-3 240/280 rads in. You might do well with just a pair of 240's internally with an external RAD you hook up to when at home. That will give you a lighter system for transport and a beefy system when at home.
 
#14 ·
Quote:
Originally Posted by Phazeshifta View Post

You do understand how hardline fittings work, right? Of course you'll be able to pull a tube out of a fitting when you're pulling directly on the tube. Now go ahead and put a fitting on both ends and sandwich it between 2 components that are bolted down. How successful are you at pulling that tubing out now? Your example is ridiculous and does not have any true significance in real world situations.

And cranking down soft tube fittings with a wrench....Just lol.
my post was too long since you clearly didnt read it. Hard line depends on only compression with rubber O ring, very easy to torque out of position even with fully built system as I just stated. So again, hard line while better aesthetics, isnt as safe constantly moving around, try transporting in a car sometime like I have done many times and see how things shift around. Regarding soft tubing, swiftech the manufacturer suggests wrenching down their fittings (pic below), and unless you are fully tightening the fittings on tubing as well, you are not compressing the soft tubing as it was designed, my fingers would get sore tightening them all the way down. I realize most dont bother tightening down, and if not transporting not an issue...to each their own.

Swiftech site:
http://www.swiftech.com/1-2x3-4inch-LokSeal-Compression-fitting.aspx
 
#15 ·
In my experience Hardline fittings and tube can be more secure than soft tubing. Providing you get tube that is well matched in OD to the fittings. When well matched the connections actually get stronger over time as the orings dry a little, to the point that it becomes very difficult to remove the tube from the fittings. I have even had pieces of tube stuck in the simple push fit dual oring style fittings that had to be cut out. I've never had that with soft tube of course.

I have moved my system around in the car several times while filled without any problems at all. That is using Bitspower / EK style dual oring 'compression' hard tube fittings.

The only catch is that if the tubing, or just a single section of it, is slightly undersized it can mean a weakened connection. So careful selection of tube is very important. There is always some variation so you may need to reject some pieces if you get unlucky. In my case though I have had very few that weren't perfectly usable, and its quite easy to tell by the resistance to insertion of the tube if sizing isn't ideal..
Its also normally possible to plan the loop so that sections of tube are captured between two hard mounted parts so the tube can't move even if it wanted to. Even a 90 degree bent section of tube can be very secure. That won't always be the case though, especially in small case builds. Small builds are in general more difficult than large ones.

Ensuring that all components are solidly mounted to the case with no freedom to move is very important too. Using Acrylic rather than PETG tube can be good for this because it is stiffer and resists movement better.

I wouldn't want to trust any sort of fittings to be shipped while filled (though it is done) but being in a car is far less stressful and I have no concerns at all now moving while filled.
I wouldn't recommend it of course but the hard tube connections can be so strong that I have changed out components of systems while the loop is filled. I have had radiators and GPUs hanging by the tubing alone as parts are swapped with no issues.

This is all just my experience and of course others mileage may vary.
 
#16 ·
Quote:
Originally Posted by SavantStrike View Post

@potato42

As an analogy, look at a car - hoses (soft tubing) are used quite frequently. Ask the most dedicated hardline enthusiast if they would build a hard line setup and warrant it to work in an automotive environment for 10 thousand miles, even if the environment was kept at a constant room temperature. I bet you wouldn't have many takers
smile.gif


Hard line looks better, but it requires you rely on a weaker mechanical connection. Whether or not that's good enough is up to you, but I wouldn't personally recommend transporting a hard line system without leak testing it at it's destination.

Hard line or not, you're looking at a case that you can cram 2-3 240/280 rads in. You might do well with just a pair of 240's internally with an external RAD you hook up to when at home. That will give you a lighter system for transport and a beefy system when at home.
There is truth there but as is usually the case you can't directly compare automotive systems with PC cooling.

Lots of soft tubing is used but hard tube is not uncommon either. Fuel injection systems for example often use hard lines. With flexible motor mounts engines actually move around a fair bit in the engine bay which makes some fluid and air pathways only possible with soft tube to cope with the movement.

The most secure connection will probably always be simple barbs with proper screw clamps but that isn't normally attractive or easy to work with and is probably overkill for a system that deals with low temps and almost zero movement between components.
 
#17 ·
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ashcroft View Post

There is truth there but as is usually the case you can't directly compare automotive systems with PC cooling.

Lots of soft tubing is used but hard tube is not uncommon either. Fuel injection systems for example often use hard lines. With flexible motor mounts engines actually move around a fair bit in the engine bay which makes some fluid and air pathways only possible with soft tube to cope with the movement.

The most secure connection will probably always be simple barbs with proper screw clamps but that isn't normally attractive or easy to work with and is probably overkill for a system that deals with low temps and almost zero movement between components.
I still use the barb and clamp method some times. It's not popular for aesthic reasons as you said.

I used automotive as an analogy, but you're right, hard line is used in cars. It's a different kind of hard line though. Since they are usually metal tubing, the mechanisms that hold them are often some kind of compression fitting. Metal tubing with a compression fitting is very secure- I would argue as good or better than a barb on a hose. Compression fittings of that nature only work with metal tubing though - that kind of joint on acrylic or PETG would most likely crack it, and many of these compression fittings rely on flaring the tubing as you tighten them.
 
#18 ·
If a manufacture made true compression fittings that compressed into tubing like typical household plumbing, then I would use hard line. Im actually surprised no manufacturer has done it, PETG would withstand the compression. Primochill revo with primochill tubing was tightest, but still easily torqued to leak. Someone could make hardline as secure as soft tubing, but the 3 I tried wasnt close.
 
#20 ·
#21 ·
You said hardline was just as fast and easy as soft tubing.

I have to disagree there, creating your hardline bends can take a lot of time and patience sometimes.
There's virtually no room for error (but a rotary fitting at the end of a tube gives a little more room for error).

When you have to keep trimming your tube down and bending half a dozen times to get it perfect, it can be tiring.
The idea for most people is to get almost perfect bends and parallel lines, otherwise it just doesn't look too good.

Soft tubing is done after a couple of snips of the scissors.

The good thing about hardline is that almost anything is possible, but with soft tubing sometimes its just not possible to link one fitting to another.

Having just started hardline I probably wouldn't go back to soft in a future build, but I have nothing against people that prefer soft tubing.
 
#22 ·
Quote:
Originally Posted by opt33 View Post

Thanks for posting that Deedaz, that looks interesting, I searched before but never ran into those.
Check out the barrow V4 fittings.
They have 4 orings holding the tube (3 in the fitting, and 1 in the compression thing that screws down).

These are what I've been using, and no leaks yet after a couple of weeks.

You can pull the tube out of them of course but they do really grip it tight, you can look inside the fitting and see how the orings are all squashed against the tube.

So all 4 orings have to fail for water to leak out of them.

My main concern is actually where the fitting screws in to the radiator or other component, I'm more concerned of a leak there than from the tube section of the fitting,
 
#23 ·
The build sounds cool. Focusing on transportable water cooling sounds like a good idea for a competition, never really seen too many wcooled builds that look transportable.

Maybe some kind of bracing system that holds things tightly in place on top of those hard line tubes with the locking bit on the end. It could be a feature of the build if the aesthetics are right!

And reinforcing the frame of the case so there is no movement/torsion no matter what.
 
#24 ·
Quote:
Originally Posted by colin-java View Post

Check out the barrow V4 fittings.
They have 4 orings holding the tube (3 in the fitting, and 1 in the compression thing that screws down).

These are what I've been using, and no leaks yet after a couple of weeks.

You can pull the tube out of them of course but they do really grip it tight, you can look inside the fitting and see how the orings are all squashed against the tube.

So all 4 orings have to fail for water to leak out of them.

My main concern is actually where the fitting screws in to the radiator or other component, I'm more concerned of a leak there than from the tube section of the fitting,
Thanks Ill check those out as well. In 17 years of watercooling and countless builds, ive never had a leak, I wouldnt worry about the fitting up against the component as long as it is screwed in appropriately.

Im also going to try to fit a small plastic compression ring behind O ring on different fittings (though may not have enough room), but it would grip the tubing to where torquing it wouldnt remove it or cause it to drip...ie like normal plumbing. Im in the minority on wanting the tubing to resist torquing, but ill eventually find something or make something im happy with...til then I have the uglier soft tubing.
 
#25 ·
Quote:
Originally Posted by opt33 View Post

Thanks Ill check those out as well. In 17 years of watercooling and countless builds, ive never had a leak, I wouldnt worry about the fitting up against the component as long as it is screwed in appropriately.

Im also going to try to fit a small plastic compression ring behind O ring on different fittings (though may not have enough room), but it would grip the tubing to where torquing it wouldnt remove it or cause it to drip...ie like normal plumbing. Im in the minority on wanting the tubing to resist torquing, but ill eventually find something or make something im happy with...til then I have the uglier soft tubing.
I'm also in the minority. I like really secure connections with expensive electronics.

Those compression style hard petg fittings are petty cool though.
 
#26 ·
I really appreciate the discussion that has taken place here thanks guys! If I was to summarize so far, I'd say that the concensus is that soft tubing allows for assuredly solid connections (assuming decent quality stuff) whereas with hard tubing it can create solid connections, but tortion, twisting and uneven loads on the hard tubes may allow for a leak. Does that seem like an acceptable summation to most of you?

I think I'll go with soft tube for this build considering all the variables and since it is my first time. After getting my hands wet I might switch up to hard tube.
 
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