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post #11 of 22
Quote:
Originally Posted by miklkit View Post

Bovine excrement.

Task manager is wildly inaccurate and can not be believed.

FX does not have hyperthreading.

Others have had their case tossed out of court trying to push the same nonsense you are spouting.

Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisjames61 View Post

You are spreading nonsense because there are people on this forum who are bonafide electrical engineers, software engineers, etc.... who disagree with a layman like yourself. Hyper threading has absolutely nothing in common with Clustered Multi Threading. A 6300 has six integer units. An 8350 has eight. Can you count?

Sooooooo much hostilities lol. Guess what gentlemen!!!

My apologies. My facts were wrong. After reviewing my sources, it looks like you both were indeed correct. I've learned something new.

Also, you guys are SAVAGE lol.

Didn't know that Bovine excrement was a fancy way of saying bull poop. I'm going to use that in the future.
Edited by NexusRed - 11/20/17 at 11:19am
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post #12 of 22
Quote:
Originally Posted by NexusRed View Post

How am I spreading nonsense? Am I hitting every single new thread and saying "FX 6300 ISN'T A TRUE SIX CORE!" ? No. I'm not spreading anything. I was giving my thoughts on a post. Calm down with your accusations.

Fire up task manager on a FX 6300 and it shows 3 cores, 6 threads.
FX series has two physical integer cores per module. 3 modules total. Each core is fighting for resources per module. Works just like a 3 core/6 thread system.
So my earlier statement may have not been 100% correct in the sense of it being a 3 core with hyper threading, it works just like that by design.

Ok my inital instict was to pile on you as others ready kind of have for being misinformed...but i will resist and try something else.

Please be aware that many of us are simply tired and cranky about the constant misinformation that is spread about FX engineering. Take the flames with a grain of salt and try not to take it personally.

Just because a youtuber or tech presser says some nonsense that sounds good doesnt make it correct or accurate. The misinformation you provided has long been rumored and spread as fact by many others before you. It is indeed false on many levels and I will do my best to educate you as to why with a simplified analogy/example comparing hyperthreading and the FX modualr design.
Quote:
The FX 6xxx series isn't a true 6 core. It's a 3 core, 6 module unit. Triple core with Hyper-threading.
Quote:
So my earlier statement may have not been 100% correct in the sense of it being a 3 core with hyper threading, it works just like that by design.


First and foremost...your ability to admit you were not 100% accurate is appreciated. Lets clean up the rest of your misunderstanding.

You clearly understand that FX is made up of moduals. Each modual is capable of running 2 true threads. This is due to the fact that they have 2 fully functional Integer units along with some descrete and some shared resources. One of those shared resources is the Floating point unit. This is the reason FX are constantly refered to as having "hyperthreading" but it is an innaccurate way to classify them in every sense of the word.

In reality a Hyperthread is a single core/thread schedualing two tasks at the same time. Now in theory it can complete the two tasks faster by running them at the same time rather than one right after the other due to what i will refer to as "lost latency". You see whenever a complex single task is being run, there will alwasy be times where parts of the CPU pipeline on a core will have to wait for another part to finish before it can move on. That creates "latency" in the process and slows it down. There is really no way to remove that wait time, but what hyperthreading does is it essentially allows part of the CPU to start working on another task while you are waiting. This isnt a perfectly accurate expanation of Hyperthreading, but it will be acceptable at allowing you to understand how and why it differs from FX Modular design.

So If a processor has task A and B to do...one without hypertheading will do A to completion and then do B. Both task A and B will retain their "lost latency" and the total time will be X.

A hyperthreaded single Core will run A and B at the same time. Wherever there is "lost latency in either workload they will start the opposite task and shave some time off the end result...completing the total task of both A and B in less than X time.

The AMD FX processors do no do anything at all like this. They have no Hyperthreading and will not shave off any of that "lost latency" at all...ever. This is why it is completely inacurate to call them a hyperthreaded Core. Each Core/thread only ever gets one task at a time.

There is a similar issue they deal with due to shared resources interms of waiting for tasks to be finished and creating latency, but it is different and behaves differently so even though it is similar it still doesnt make sense to use the term hyperthreading for them.

Two AMD processing cores can in fact complete the same tasks A and B simultaneously. In an ideal workload assuming A and B were the same basic length task...2 AMD FX cores will complete them in the same time it takes 1 core to complete task A or task B. They run asyncrounously, (at the same time) and not serially (one after the other) as with a single core...or serially with some overlap as with a single core that has hyperthreading.

The issue arrises when the tasks at hand require the shared resources of the modual to a point where they are overwhelemed. For example if A and B are entirely integer based tasks in nature...the 2 core modual will perfom both tasks simultaneously with total time being half what doing them back to back would be. Even if the task is a mix of interger based calculations and some floating point calculations, the processor would largely do the same as long as floating point taks dont arrive at the exactly the same time. There may be a small amout of "lost latency" intorduced when they do, but it will largely be performed in half the time running the tasks serially would.

Now in a tasks that are 100% floating point in nature is where the the real problem for FX shows up. The processor will schedual both tasks simultaneously so A on core 1 and B on core 2, but they will get backed up like traffic as they both hit and quickly overhwelm the shared floating point unit. In this workload scenario they will perfrom very smilialr to a single core with hyperthreading. In almost all other workloads they will perfom much better than even the best hyperthreaded chips with similar IPC.

AMD gets bashed a lot for this egineering decision. It however is very intellegent for some workloads. If you expect the processor to mainly handle Integer based tasks...a good assuption in some cases and bad in others...thenn by building it with a single shared floating point unit you you will get all the benifits of running two cores with descrete both Ineterger and FP units, but at a much cheaper cost and a smaller size to manufacture. People often forget about how the larger the size of chip, the lower the yeilds and higher the cost to make becomes. Good engineering is a balacing act of choosing how to get the most out of the least amount of space and at the cheapest cost. AMD banked in saving some money for a minimal hit to performance in most realistic workloads by eliminating a FP unit from their FX desgins. Sadly it took software almost 6 years to catch up and allow the design to work as intended.

At the time AMD knew they were on an inferior processing node and would not be able to hit the clock speeds and IPC of intel chips that had moved to a much more effcieant process. Manufacturing chips that were slower but could potentially perfom tasks in a true asyncronous fashion was their solution. If you follow the history of these chips in detail as I have they have lived up to the promise of the perfomance they always had, but were very ahead of their time. An 8 core FX with a mild OC and good tuning can compete with and even outperform the competition of its day in many tasks (2500k) when using software that has finally caught up to its vision.

I hope this helped explain the differences bewteen AMD FX moduals and Intels hypertheading better. The fact is they are indeed true 8 6 and 4 core processors...but with some shared resources. That is in no way the same thing as a hyperthreaded core and should not be refered to as such. They will perform very differently in different types of tasks, and similarly in others, but they are not the same thing even a little bit.



A decent overview of what Hyperthreading is...
Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)

And a decent overview of why AMD is not Hyperthreaded and is indeed up to an 8 core processor.
Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)

Edited by gapottberg - 11/20/17 at 3:03pm
post #13 of 22
Quote:
Originally Posted by NexusRed View Post


Sooooooo much hostilities lol. Guess what gentlemen!!!

My apologies. My facts were wrong. After reviewing my sources, it looks like you both were indeed correct. I've learned something new.

Also, you guys are SAVAGE lol.

Didn't know that Bovine excrement was a fancy way of saying bull poop. I'm going to use that in the future.

I didn't mean to be a jerk. I am tired, old and cranky. My apologies.
post #14 of 22
Sorry for contributing to the off topic nature...here is my recomendation to the OP.

For a $300 uprade, depending on the quality of the motherboard, a very viable option would be to upgrade to an FX-8320e which can be found for around $50 after sales and rebates right now. The 8320e is the cheapest 8 core FX and is drop in ready at stock speeds on almost any motherboard. However...if you have a decent cooler or can spend a few bucks on an upgrade over the stock one, you can usually OC them to 4.0ghz clocked and locked on all 8 cores at very reasonable voltage. Even in poor 4+1 phase boards. This will run much better than stock and give you some headroom with 2 more cores. They can also OC very well to about 4.5ghz on a high end motherboard with ghood cooling, at which point they run as good as any other 8 core FX chip at the same clocks. They do tend to top out about there though when OCing, while some of the other FX line can hit 4.7-5.0 with much more relaibility.

Pair that FX-8320e with an RX-560 which has been seen on sale this week for as low as $65 after rebates and you will have a very capable budget esports capable machine for less than $200 in upgrade cost. Spend whatever you have left of your budget on an upgraded kit of ddr3 memory and enjoy. A quality 2133 or 2400 kit will have an impact over 1600 speed memory that can be noticable in some workloads and games. Perticularly with helping smooth out framerate minimums and lows.
Edited by gapottberg - 11/20/17 at 1:34pm
post #15 of 22
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bartleby3004 View Post

im trying to figure out what i can get my 9yo niece for xmas. a few years ago i built her an amd fx-6xxx dont remember which one just know its 6 cores. and threw my old gtx 470 in it and an old hdd i had laying around. my original plan was to get ryzen 3 1200, 8 gig ddr4 3000mhz+ a 120 gig ssd with an msi b350m gaming pro, and one of my brothers old 660ti. but then i was thinking about the games she plays she typically plays minecraft, the sims, and other 2d type games. would the ryzen be the best possible path to go or would be keeping the Fx-6xxx and maybe getting a new gpu and ssd?

I'm leaning towards the side of your specced Ryzen build and an SSD.

Ryzen single core performance will benefit all games and an SSD is like night and day vs an HDD. I get it, she's 9, and she probably doesn't need MAX FPS!!!!, but I think we can all appreciate a smoother running game, and faster loading too.

Plus...she won't play Minecraft forever....
    
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post #16 of 22
She's a 9 year old girl who plays minecraft... I'm pretty sure with a rig like that, she's fine. o_o Maybe look into helping one of your other friends rather than giving a grade-school child a more potent PC. xD

Not even in the double-digit age bracket... already looking to be upgraded with newer hardware she will never tap into. I'd say grab a better GPU, like a 750 Ti and call it good. x3
     
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post #17 of 22
wink.gif
Quote:
Originally Posted by Imglidinhere View Post

She's a 9 year old girl who plays minecraft... I'm pretty sure with a rig like that, she's fine. o_o Maybe look into helping one of your other friends rather than giving a grade-school child a more potent PC. xD

Not even in the double-digit age bracket... already looking to be upgraded with newer hardware she will never tap into. I'd say grab a better GPU, like a 750 Ti and call it good. x3

Around that age is when I started really getting into PC modding and, just in my opinion, you're really hamstringing that if you give her an AM3 system. I don't know...I was a super nerdy kid...not sure what this girl is all about.

Edit: it would certainly be sad to have an abandoned Ryzen box sitting in the corner doing nothing but minecraft, so I guess it depends on her future to justify it.
    
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post #18 of 22
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bartleby3004 View Post

im trying to figure out what i can get my 9yo niece for xmas. a few years ago i built her an amd fx-6xxx dont remember which one just know its 6 cores. and threw my old gtx 470 in it and an old hdd i had laying around. my original plan was to get ryzen 3 1200, 8 gig ddr4 3000mhz+ a 120 gig ssd with an msi b350m gaming pro, and one of my brothers old 660ti. but then i was thinking about the games she plays she typically plays minecraft, the sims, and other 2d type games. would the ryzen be the best possible path to go or would be keeping the Fx-6xxx and maybe getting a new gpu and ssd?
Get her a bike or anything that will get her outdoors.
post #19 of 22
Quote:
Originally Posted by JackCY View Post

Get her a bike or anything that will get her outdoors.

Just make sure you it has RGB. This is 2017 after all. LoL
post #20 of 22
Apologies to OP for derailing the thread, but misinformation needs to be corrected wherever it shows up. This has been going on for years and our patience got thin a long time ago.

The only thing wrong with FX today is its old advanced instruction sets from 2011 or so. It simply can not process information in newer apps as well as newer cpus because of this.

For this reason I would go Ryzen with emphasis on the motherboard and ssd. The cpu can be upgraded later so the system can grow with the user's needs.
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