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(Coffee Lake) BCLK OCing on non-K models?

17K views 22 replies 8 participants last post by  lolvatveo 
#1 ·
https://forum.level1techs.com/t/exploring-the-price-performance-advantage-of-bclk-overclocking-on-locked-coffee-lake-cpus/120099

I got a few questions:

#1 - a few posters on the above article are saying that Intel pushed out some really shady, anti-consumerist patch that disabled BCLK on non-K models?

#2 - Is it possible to roll back this malware and get a bios that has BCLK enabled, and keep Intel's malware off my PC indefinitely?

#3 - If I plan on BCLK OCing an I7 8700, what's the best priced motherboard to do it on? I'm thinking about the Azrock Z370 Taichi, but if there is another motherboard in the $150 range that can do it as well, I'd prefer to spend a little less. Considering I'm gonna need to invest $100+ in a CPU cooler with a 240mm+ radiator just to keep this chip from reaching 70C during gaming. Because I doubt a cooler master 212+ evo is going to be a good enough cooler for an I7 8700 CPU with no delid. Even at base clocks.

#4 - With BCLK overclocking, I assume I'm going to have to underclock the ram in the bios to compensate for the BCLK increase? By enough where it's within otherwise normal operating parameters post BCLK increase to keep it stable? Is there anything else I'm gonna need to tweak for BCLK OC to be stable?

#5 - I'm not expecting a 130 BCLK OC, but what would be realistic, average for a BCLK OC on coffee lake? 110-120?
 
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#2 ·
It isn't malware, but it's cute of you to describe it as such. This is simply Skylake all over again, but Intel is getting out ahead of things before other motherboard manufacturers implement something similar.
 
#3 ·
Quote:
Originally Posted by chessmyantidrug View Post

It isn't malware, but it's cute of you to describe it as such. This is simply Skylake all over again, but Intel is getting out ahead of things before other motherboard manufacturers implement something similar.
Yeah it's definitely not malware, dont think its software at all. Sounds like Intel has basically enforced motherboard manufacturers to not include BCLK adjustment options in their bios. (to avoid issues that will arise from people trying to overclock cpu's not designed to handle overclocking and busting their hardware and blaming it on the company).

I think AsRock have included a feature which they call BCLK Engine, and is only available on some boards and only on some bios revisions. I think its basically a secondary Baseclock generator that is used instead of the normal one?

Don't know if I'd call it shady.

Shouldn't have to underclock your ram, maybe run a lower ram multi, but you should be able to get pretty close to the rated speeds and timings unless you get bad luck with the imc.
 
#4 ·
I'm really surprised anyone here would defend Intel's anti-consumer practices by issuing bios patches that eliminate a feature that users like me could take advantage of to save money.

The problem I got with Coffee Lake, is they're priced above MSRP everywhere because of a controlled, intentional shortage by Intel. And then I gotta pay extra for a delidded CPU on top of that, as well as buy another CPU cooler.

I got about $1000 budget for CPU + CPU cooler + board + ram (16GBs) + OS. Then I'll slap a new GPU in it sometime next year. Next year's budget will go into a GPU + monitor.
 
#5 ·
The feature wasn't from Intel, it was from ASRock. If Intel wanted base clock overclocking, they would have never made that architectural change with Sandy Bridge. If you want base clock overclocking, get a Nehalem processor.

It's a tad humorous that you're outraged over a slight markup on Coffee Lake parts because of simple supply and demand. DDR4 RAM prices are double what they were a year ago because of similar supply and demand. I guess it's easier to justify paying $80 more for a kit that was $80 a year ago than it is to pay $60 over a $360 MSRP CPU. No one is making you pay to delid a CPU. No one is making you buy a new CPU cooler.
 
#6 ·
Did you read the article I posted? And the comments? Intel is releasing micro coding in windows updates that disabled this feature. Even for people who chose to use the old bios that had these features enabled. That's why I called it malware. And why I asked if anyone knows a way to keep Intel from installing malware on my PC? I never agreed to allow Intel to put anything on my PC that disables features of components that I specifically purchased because they had those features.

The CPU shortages have been confirmed to be due to Intel intentionally keeping the supply tight. They're controlling the supply, and you're making this about normal supply and demand?

And, considering that they put bird poop under the lids of K model CPUs, and that they'll hit TJmax during some games without a $100 CPU cooler, or a delid, I don't feel like I got too many options unless I want throttling during gaming.

I might very well just wait until next year to upgrade after the price drops, and if the price doesn't drop, then Ryzen 2 might be a better buy for me.

I'm just a bit frustrated with the current market situation with parts, such as them going for way over MSRP. Not only that, but having to delid or invest in extreme CPU cooling on top of all that. And possibly a case to fit a big enough radiator just to keep my OC'd chip cool. I'm looking at closer to needing a $1200 budget, when I figured $1000 would be more than sufficient.

I mean, damn, my old I5 2500k OC'd would barely get over 50C during gaming, on a 212+ evo cooler. These newer CPUs hit 70C+ during gaming on 240mm radiators with no delid. That's just freaking insane.
 
#7 ·
Once again, it isn't malware. You can keep calling it malware, but you would be incorrect. It also was a thread, not an article. And like I initially said, this is Skylake all over again. In case you are not aware, base clock overclocking was a thing with Skylake, which Coffee Lake is fundamentally Skylake. When Kaby Lake first released, people were wondering if they would be able to overclock via base clock again. I briefly wondered if it would be possible with Coffee Lake, but because it wasn't possible with Kaby Lake I didn't bother to research it at all. Turns out Intel shut it down just like they did with Skylake. I honestly don't understand why you're this upset over something that has been happening for almost a decade. If you want to overclock, there's unlocked processors.

I'm beginning to think you don't understand how supply and demand works. If the supply is not controlled, then the market can't be controlled. When gas prices were astronomical a few years ago, it was because the oil supply was controlled.

Now you're just rambling. I can't see anything productive coming from this thread. Maybe someone else who doesn't understand basic supply and demand will come along and agree with you and you guys can complain until supply is no longer an issue and convince yourself the rants in this thread changed the world.
 
#8 ·
Intel has been using these micro codes for sometime... long before Coffee Lake or Skylake. My Haswell 4690 is locked from using multicore enhancement because of a micro code update. I could modify a bios with an earlier micro code, but 200mhz isnt worth it to me. Im better off buying an unlocked 4790k and overclocking it properly.

You might want to consider getting a 3770k, and keeping your existing motherboard and memory for a little while. It should game perfectly well, and you can upgrade your cooling and delid the 3770k to practice for when you switch platforms in a year or so. 3770k is still a great gaming CPU, and you can take that money saved and put it towards cooling and a delid tool.

I expected Intel to be on top of the BCLK overclocking, and if you decided to purchase hardware to exploit something that they 'fixed' with Sky-OC, then you may have made the wrong decision.

I jumped on 7700k after I gave my 3570k setup to my nephew for Xmas. If I still had the platform, I would have upgraded to 3770k, delidded it and been content. Unless gaming at 1080p 144hz+ with a 1080ti, you arent going to see much of a performance difference between the 3770k and an 8700k. Sure, theres bragging rights, but if limited to 60hz, or moving up in resolution, its all GPU.

By now, Intels motto is that if we want extra performance, then we need to pay to have the option. This is why there are only 2 CPUs for each mainstream i3, i5, and i7 category. The standard model, and the turbo model. They dont need to make 4 different models with 200mhz difference between them. The turbo model covers more than enough of a performance gap to justify it even if running stock speed over the base model. I loved the days of buying the base model and outperforming the top CPU, but they are over. A great budget option is the 8400... for gaming, a 6c i7 isnt justified, the 8400 can perform with a 7700k in many titles.

Plan your build, plan your budget. I still dont think its necessary to jump to 8gen if you can get a cheap 3770k to keep that system going. DDR4 prices are ridiculous, and for a mere 10% performance difference, its not worth spending $800. Better to spend that money on good cooling and a new GPU instead that will give you a larger increase in performance.
 
#9 ·
To voice my dissatisfaction with Intel this gen, I decided to buy a Ryzen rig instead. Because at the end of the day, money talks and complaining on the internet is pointless. So I let my wallet do the talking.

And in the next 4-5 years when I'm looking for a new motherboard + CPU upgrade, and Intel happens to time an intentional supply shortage within the short window every few years I'm seeking to upgrade, instead of complaining on the internet, I'll just buy their competitor's processor. Every, single, time. And that's an addition to the issues I have with Intel that I've already stated in this topic.

It just made sense to me that if I really, truly, have this big of a problem with Intel's practices, that I should buy their competitor's processor instead. Ryzen 1600x was $200 on sale. Marked down from $250 for Cyber Monday week. It was only $10 more than the 1600, which was also marked down. For just $10 more, I figured I might as well get the x model, as it's probably a better OCer. And I wasn't going to use the stock cooler anyway. I7 8700k is more than double the price, and it's not even close to twice the CPU. Maybe 10-15% better. And Ryzen will run cool with a basic air cooler like a 212+ evo w/duel fans, unlike Coffee Lake.
 
#10 ·
You're a little too upset about Intel not allowing base clock overclocking. Or perhaps I'm not upset enough. Ryzen is really good value, but I want better gaming performance. Coffee Lake will give that to me. I won't pay over MSRP for an i7-8700K. I won't have to because I'm not in a hurry to upgrade. My X58 setup performs just fine. I don't even need to upgrade, but I would like to modernize my system. Can't do that without upgrading.
 
#11 ·
Quote:
Originally Posted by chessmyantidrug View Post

You're a little too upset about Intel not allowing base clock overclocking. Or perhaps I'm not upset enough. Ryzen is really good value, but I want better gaming performance. Coffee Lake will give that to me. I won't pay over MSRP for an i7-8700K. I won't have to because I'm not in a hurry to upgrade. My X58 setup performs just fine. I don't even need to upgrade, but I would like to modernize my system. Can't do that without upgrading.
Your X58 isn't too far behind the Ryzen 1600...

OP seems a little too emotionally invested in this. Intel has the performance, Ryzen is a good value...

I just got an x79 mobo with 6c/12t 3930k for $260 shipped. I think it should give similar performance to the Ryzen with a mild 4.2ghz overclock on stock voltage.

Don't hate the company, hate the game. Many producers of various tech parts have been having "shortages" of items, and they turn around and tell their investors they are having their best profits yet. Seems common practice right now. Memory prices are up nearly 125% of what they were a year ago. I paid $70 for 16gb ddr4 3000c15. Now that kit is $195. Intel's shortages ate only when the cpus are first released. This memory issue has been creeping up consistently over the entire year.

Makes no sense to go to a ddr4 platform from ddr3 if you have decent memory.
 
#12 ·
BLCK overclocking is an old and at this point outdated way of doing things. You either pay for intel K models or get something close. I personally will buy I chip that I can just clock to 5ghz easily.(I did get lucky, but 52% of chips can do 5ghz).
 
#13 ·
Quote:
Originally Posted by chessmyantidrug View Post

You're a little too upset about Intel not allowing base clock overclocking. Or perhaps I'm not upset enough. Ryzen is really good value, but I want better gaming performance. Coffee Lake will give that to me. I won't pay over MSRP for an i7-8700K. I won't have to because I'm not in a hurry to upgrade. My X58 setup performs just fine. I don't even need to upgrade, but I would like to modernize my system. Can't do that without upgrading.
It's not just this one issue, but a combination of other things as well.

Ryzen doesn't lose that badly to the 8700k in most gaming benchmarks. Unless you're aiming for 140hz+, it won't matter in most games. Most of the top AAA games make good usage of multi-threading, and on those games in particular, Ryzen is only slightly behind, or about even. On DX12 titles, CPU most definitely won't matter that much. I plan on getting a 4k monitor sometimes next year, and at that resolution, CPU won't matter.

https://www.pcgamesn.com/intel-core-i7-8700k-review-benchmarks

https://www.pcworld.com/article/3230369/components-processors/core-i7-8700k-review-prices-specs-benchmarks.html?page=2

There are also some early benchmarks comparing Ryzen to the 7700k that might not be valid due to Ryzen having early bios issues that have since been fixed.
 
#14 ·
I like how you isolate the i7-8700K as if it's the only Coffee Lake processor on the market when the i5-8400 is widely known to be the best bang for your buck among processors at the moment. It only makes sense to go Ryzen, at that price point, if you're doing CPU-intensive tasks. At the end of the day, Ryzen is the inferior architecture for my uses and I will be passing. Maybe if Zen 2 or 3 closes the gap a little more, I'll consider them. At the moment, Ryzen isn't enough of an upgrade over my current setup to warrant consideration.
 
#15 ·
I5 8400 is exactly the same price that I paid for my Ryzen 1600x, or $200. And the I5 8400 is sold out at newegg @ $200 price point.

I5 8400 is about even with 1600x in most benchmarks that aren't 720p resolution....

https://www.techspot.com/review/1505-intel-core-8th-gen-vs-amd-ryzen/

A game like Battlefield 1 @ 1440p, 120hz with a GPU like a 1080ti, Ryzen is just as good. Most of the FPS shooter games where people like 120hz+ for are within a couple FPS of each other. Same thing for DOOM, Overwatch, and many others.

I've got a lot more upgrade potential with an AM4 socket as well, considering it's a relatively fresh socket, and AMD sticks with the same sockets for several gens of chips. I'd at least be able to drop a Zen 3 in this motherboard, if not a Zen 4. That's the case I'm making for the budget gamer still being better off going with Ryzen + AM4 at that price point.
 
#16 ·
I don't know why you actually think AM4 has a better upgrade path. Just because AMD will use that socket across three generations of processors doesn't mean the third generation will be enough of an upgrade over the first to actually warrant an upgrade. On top of that, AMD will release new chipsets with more features that current AM4 boards won't have. Congratulations on a socket not being "dead" with the first salvo of processors that hit the market.

You can't talk about "budget gaming" and mention a GTX 1080 Ti.
 
#17 ·
Quote:
Originally Posted by chessmyantidrug View Post

I don't know why you actually think AM4 has a better upgrade path. Just because AMD will use that socket across three generations of processors doesn't mean the third generation will be enough of an upgrade over the first to actually warrant an upgrade. On top of that, AMD will release new chipsets with more features that current AM4 boards won't have. Congratulations on a socket not being "dead" with the first salvo of processors that hit the market.

You can't talk about "budget gaming" and mention a GTX 1080 Ti.
How many more upgrade paths are there going to be for 1151 (300 series) chipset? Maybe 1? I'm not expecting big improvements with consecutive Ryzen revisions, but it's more likely AM4 socket gets a potential upgrade than Intel sockets. It's not really rocket science to see why that's better. Additional chipset features with newer motherboards? I probably won't care for most of them, and the ones I do like wouldn't be worth upgrading a motherboard for.

1600x is good enough to push a 1080ti, even @ 120hz. If someone wants to run one of those 1080p/200hz monitors, I could maybe see spending extra on a CPU. But gaming PCs are typically 50%+ of the budget for the GPU, and the rest goes into the other parts. It's been like that for how many years? That's basically what my rig looks like. $1300ish range PC, I'm reusing the SSD + PSU, and then I slapped a 1080ti in the PC. For a PC that's got a 1080ti in it, I spent about the least I could in it without going too cheap on anything.
 
#18 ·
It's clear you don't understand the point I made so I'll try and say it a different way. If you could drop a Haswell CPU into a Sandy Bridge motherboard, it wouldn't be worth it. The CPU upgrade isn't worth it. The upgrade from Zen 1 to Zen 3 is not likely to be worth it. The upgrade path for AM4 doesn't matter.
 
#19 ·
Quote:
Originally Posted by chessmyantidrug View Post

It's clear you don't understand the point I made so I'll try and say it a different way. If you could drop a Haswell CPU into a Sandy Bridge motherboard, it wouldn't be worth it. The CPU upgrade isn't worth it. The upgrade from Zen 1 to Zen 3 is not likely to be worth it. The upgrade path for AM4 doesn't matter.
I might have dropped a Haswell CPU in a Sandy Bridge motherboard, if I could. There are a few applications where Haswell gets a considerable boost over Sandy Bridge. There are quite a few games that would bottleneck Sandy Bridge, that Haswell wouldn't hit a bottleneck in, @ 60hz. My point is, I like having more options rather than less. And 'doesn't matter' or 'isn't worth it' is subjective. It might be worth it to me, depending on the situation. And while I agree, the upgrade from Zen 1 to 3 probably won't be considerable enough to matter, but there is a possibility I might be able to drop a Zen 4 or possibly 5 in an AM4 motherboard, considering it's a fresh socket. The equivalent of basically dropping in a Broadwell chip in a Sandy Bridge motherboard. AMD rode out the AM3/+ socket for a long time. And someone with an earlier AM3 chip could have easily found a viable CPU upgrade for AM3 socket, if they invested in a decent enough motherboard at the start.

Either way, I'm done. We're not going to see eye to eye on this, and you can have the last remark if you want.
 
#21 · (Edited)
Maybe something has changed and author changed his mind, anyway let me respond.

"the i5-8400 is widely known to be the best bang for your buck among processors at the moment. It only makes sense to go Ryzen, at that price point, if you're doing CPU-intensive tasks"

More like "it only makes sense to go Intel if you only game and use high refresh rate monitor" For 60 fps Ryzen will be enough and will suffice for longer thanks to extra threads. It's strange how everyone arguing for intel seems to be dismissing multicore performance as unnecessary feature and yet everyone seems to be playing on 144Hz monitors and needs 120 fps over 110 or something similar.

"I don't know why you actually think AM4 has a better upgrade path. Just because AMD will use that socket across three generations of processors doesn't mean the third generation will be enough of an upgrade over the first to actually warrant an upgrade."

That statement doesn't make sense regardles of circumstances. What's more likely - a better upgrade option if there is only one gen available or if there are 3 gens available?
 
#22 ·
I'm sorry you didn't understand my point about upgrade paths being negligible. By the time you're looking to upgrade the CPU, you're more than likely going to have to replace the motherboard. I'm not sure how much more simpler I can make that. Also not sure why you decided to necro a thread where much has changed. Speaking in context of current prices, nothing beats the R5 1600. I'm sorry the landscape changed and you can't possibly fathom what the landscape might have been like seven months ago. At the time, the only reason to pass on the i5-8400 was motherboard price.
 
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