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[Ars] FCC won’t delay vote, says net neutrality supporters are “desperate” - Page 17

post #161 of 272
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheWizardMan View Post

So instead the consumer is forced to pay for all of the internet even if all they want is Netflix? No thanks, I'll take consumer choice over your perceived value of an "open internet" any day.

Pay for all of the Internet?! lachen.gif
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post #162 of 272
Quote:
Originally Posted by xenophobe View Post


That FUD doesn't help your case. That belongs in a Marvel "What IF" comic book.

So you're saying ISPs don't want to run their internet services in the same way they run their TV services?

 

Because all things are pointing towards them wanting to. A couple of US ISPs have already said how running an internet service like that is beneficial. I can't be bothered to look it up, but I think it was Comcast.

post #163 of 272
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheWizardMan View Post

So instead the consumer is forced to pay for all of the internet even if all they want is Netflix? No thanks, I'll take consumer choice over your perceived value of an "open internet" any day.

W-what? That's not how the internet is supposed to work. You pay for a downstream and an upstream that allows you to send and receive packets to and from your favorite services. All these packets do is carry information, it shouldn't matter where that information comes from. It costs the ISP no more money to move any one packet over another, the only variable is the amount of information you request over a month which should ideally simply be limited by the speed of the internet package you're paying for.

Do you really think ISP's have any plans to make home internet more affordable? They're going to use their position to bend you over and give you the rod because that's what will generate the most profits for them. Expect your favorite services to be throttled and your ISP to suddenly offer competing services that aren't throttled.

Let me use an analogy that you might better understand. Right now, the internet is a well-lit alleyway that connects you to your favorite services -- you're on one end, the service is on the other, the ISP is the alley way. When you request data from your website of choice, you both meet in the middle, transact your data and move back to your respective sides. Keep in mind that BOTH of you pay to have access to this alleyway. The lights above your heads keep you safe while you transact because they act as a sort of protection against you being extorted, your data being mishandled, or otherwise either party being mistreated. The ISPs want to turn off these lights because they'd like to place thugs in this alleyway that want to shake down the service providers who are simply trying to connect to you, using an alleyway that BOTH of you already pay for. The web service now has to pay twice, or face the thugs who will now either slow down your transactions or block them outright. But how convenient, the thugs are now offering that same service you were already receiving, but that you now can't have. I guess your only option is to go with the thugs or do without.

Notice that having the thugs in the middle provides no extra value to you as a customer, and it will not make anything cheaper.
post #164 of 272
Quote:
Originally Posted by xenophobe View Post

That FUD doesn't help your case. That belongs in a Marvel "What IF" comic book.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheWizardMan View Post

This actually is fud. Go look at the actual plans. They have unlimited plans, just like we do. The difference is, they also have cheaper packages that only give people access to certain services. This is a hilarious example because it's actual consumers getting more choice.

So limiting my access to the internet by charging me a lower fee is giving me more choices?

Who the and in what world would anyone want to pay for that?

It's also dangerous, since more and more people are being conditioned to think that limited access to the internet is ok.

It's bad enough they throttle the speed and impose caps for a smaller fee now you want to encourage limiting your access as well?

Like the UN said, the internet is now integral to everyone's life and more and more companies are going internet only, so it's becoming a necessity. The taxpayer paid for the infrastructure anyway. It should be treated like a water utility -$20 unlimited a month for upkeep and that's it. This could also limit severe collusion between the providers.
Edited by Gunderman456 - 12/7/17 at 4:52am
 
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post #165 of 272
Quote:
Originally Posted by andrews2547 View Post

They absolutely should be regulated. However they're being regulated in a way that favours the corporations despite the fact that it's going to be worse off for the people.

This is what people are arguing against, not because they don't want the internet to be regulated. 

Do you want your ISP to charge you more money on top of what you're already paying just so you can gain access to YouTube or Netflix? Because this is what the FCC as well as ISPs are pushing for. Maybe not those specific websites (although I wouldn't be surprised) but I believe ISPs already want to sell internet plans in the same way they sell cable TV.

You pay for an internet connection, but you don't have access to certain websites and the only way you will be able to gain those websites is if you pay for a "package" that allows you to.

This image explains it better than I can. Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)
83473d4a-ac79-459d-9380-8e37f4b79435_ce03ec32-1a64-4996-bb07-1733ab8aba2d.jpg

Note: This isn't something that is definitely going to happen, but considering IPSs are pushing for the ability to limit certain traffic, I wouldn't be surprised if it's something they do want to do
.

Except as others have said, the form this will likely come in is not packages with access. What they'll do is introduce data caps, gradually lower them and then provide packages that don't count toward those limits.

Simply restricting access is way too heavy handed, but by using data caps and selling packages that bypass those they essentially do the same thing without all the bad publicity.

It's essentially market segmentation--dividing up a good or service into arbitrary tiers in an effort to maximize profits. Intel, Nvidia, auto manufacturers--they all do it. The big difference being communications and healthcare are essential parts of surviving in today's economy and world and should not be allowed to be treated like a normal service / good.
Edited by Aemonn - 12/7/17 at 6:10am
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post #166 of 272
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gunderman456 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by xenophobe View Post

That FUD doesn't help your case. That belongs in a Marvel "What IF" comic book.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheWizardMan View Post

This actually is fud. Go look at the actual plans. They have unlimited plans, just like we do. The difference is, they also have cheaper packages that only give people access to certain services. This is a hilarious example because it's actual consumers getting more choice.

So limiting my access to the internet by charging me a lower fee is giving me more choices?

Who the and in what world would anyone want to pay for that?

It's also dangerous, since more and more people are being conditioned to think that limited access to the internet is ok.

It's bad enough they throttle the speed and impose caps for a smaller fee now you want to encourage limiting your access as well?

Like the UN said, the internet is now integral to everyone's life and more and more companies are going internet only, so it's becoming a necessity. The taxpayer paid for the infrastructure anyway. It should be treated like a water utility -$20 unlimited a month for upkeep and that's it. This could also limit severe collusion between the providers.

Exactly. Some people really are too far down the rabbit hole in the ISP's speak. Defending a compartmentalized Internet is the wet dream of any ISP. And it's a scary thought that in a few years younger people that weren't here in the beginning of it may grow up thinking of the Internet like that, just like some older people think that the Internet is the IE icon on the taskbar - it's not hard to redefine the Internet for upcoming generations unfortunately. The notion that the Internet isn't everything that can be accessed on-line but rather a series of packages, like the channel packages in cable TV contracts.

Even some of the once small companies that got to the billion dollar status where they are now because the Internet is a global place are now staying on the sidelines of this discussion because having such a segmented deal would give them leverage to do lucrative deals with ISPs and lock out newcomers. They don't want competition, they are in their comfort zone right now; see how many hypocrite big companies operating on the Internet are staying by the sidelines nowadays.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Aemonn View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by andrews2547 View Post

Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)
They absolutely should be regulated. However they're being regulated in a way that favours the corporations despite the fact that it's going to be worse off for the people.

This is what people are arguing against, not because they don't want the internet to be regulated.

Do you want your ISP to charge you more money on top of what you're already paying just so you can gain access to YouTube or Netflix? Because this is what the FCC as well as ISPs are pushing for. Maybe not those specific websites (although I wouldn't be surprised) but I believe ISPs already want to sell internet plans in the same way they sell cable TV.

You pay for an internet connection, but you don't have access to certain websites and the only way you will be able to gain those websites is if you pay for a "package" that allows you to.

This image explains it better than I can.
Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)
83473d4a-ac79-459d-9380-8e37f4b79435_ce03ec32-1a64-4996-bb07-1733ab8aba2d.jpg
Note: This isn't something that is definitely going to happen, but considering IPSs are pushing for the ability to limit certain traffic, I wouldn't be surprised if it's something they do want to do.

Except as others have said, the form this will likely come in is not packages with access. What they'll do is introduce bandwidth limits, gradually lower them and then provide packages that don't count toward those bandwidth limits.

Simply restricting access is way too heavy handed, but by using bandwidth caps and selling packages that bypass those they essentially do the same thing without all the bad publicity.

It's essentially market segmentation--dividing up a good or service into arbitrary tiers in an effort to maximize profits. Intel, Nvidia, auto manufacturers--they all do it. The big difference being communications and healthcare are essential parts of surviving in today's economy and world and should not be allowed to be treated like a normal service / good.

Exactly, that's why they never gave up on data caps, it's part of the future strategy. On paper the Internet will never be limited; in practice, however, there will be economic locks in place.
Edited by tpi2007 - 12/7/17 at 6:09am
 
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post #167 of 272
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gunderman456 View Post



It's also dangerous, since more and more people are being conditioned to think that limited access to the internet is ok.

Exactly. It's shifting the conversation from paying for bandwidth (since for many people, for some reason, bandwidth is a hard concept to comprehend--even on a website dedicated to tech) to paying for connections to specific services.

I grind my teeth every time someone refers to a network connection as a "pipe". Even knowledgeable people do this as it's become somewhat of a cultural norm when trying to explain these things. I remember 3-4 years ago when that was a laughable term. There are no pipes any more than your electrical cable is a pipe.

When you upgrade your electrical box to support more circuits in your home do they run a larger "pipe" to facilitate this? Exactly.

/rant
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post #168 of 272
I was going to write a nice and log post about how wrong this is, but then I remembered how your health care system is.

You guys need to seriously fix your country, all my sympathies from the other side of the ocean.

Can we europeans do anything meaningful to help this net neutrality debacle?
post #169 of 272
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aemonn View Post

Except as others have said, the form this will likely come in is not packages with access. What they'll do is introduce data caps, gradually lower them and then provide packages that don't count toward those limits.

Simply restricting access is way too heavy handed, but by using data caps and selling packages that bypass those they essentially do the same thing without all the bad publicity.

It's essentially market segmentation--dividing up a good or service into arbitrary tiers in an effort to maximize profits. Intel, Nvidia, auto manufacturers--they all do it. The big difference being communications and healthcare are essential parts of surviving in today's economy and world and should not be allowed to be treated like a normal service / good.

Shhh! They shouldn't hear such elegant plans.

But really, this needing unlimited internet at rates far in excess of streaming 4k video is really twisted.
I remember having dialup. That is all anyone needs, even today. I have a tracfone auto refill plan for a little over $11 that comes with 150MB data/month. Which is enough to browse the internet for 30-40 min for half of the days of the week. I have done this for a year or two at work. I should upgrade to 500MB/month for $15, but haven't gotten around to it since I don't really need it.

My mediocre cable internet at home can blow through that 150MB in 20 seconds flat and a lot here think that it is junk.

This needing access to the internet isn't the same as needing unlimited data over fiber speeds for free.

I'm not saying internet should be more expensive or slower, just that the needs argument doesn't apply here because a lack of net neutrality 1. doesn't shut down the internet and 2. doesn't censor it. The FCC censors, the gov regulates and enforces property rights. Businesses nickel and dime you. There is a difference.
post #170 of 272
Quote:
Originally Posted by rluker5 View Post

Shhh! They shouldn't hear such elegant plans.

But really, this needing unlimited internet at rates far in excess of streaming 4k video is really twisted.
I remember having dialup. That is all anyone needs, even today. I have a tracfone auto refill plan for a little over $11 that comes with 150MB data/month. Which is enough to browse the internet for 30-40 min for half of the days of the week. I have done this for a year or two at work. I should upgrade to 500MB/month for $15, but haven't gotten around to it since I don't really need it.

My mediocre cable internet at home can blow through that 150MB in 20 seconds flat and a lot here think that it is junk.

This needing access to the internet isn't the same as needing unlimited data over fiber speeds for free.

I'm not saying internet should be more expensive or slower, just that the needs argument doesn't apply here because a lack of net neutrality 1. doesn't shut down the internet and 2. doesn't censor it. The FCC censors, the gov regulates and enforces property rights. Businesses nickel and dime you. There is a difference.

I disagree. No it doesn't "shut down" the internet, but it drastically changes how it functions and not for the better for anyone but ISPs.

Businesses absolutely censor when it's in their business interests and this will be in the form of data caps with packages that bypass these caps. They want to charge me for bandwidth (speed) at which I access the internet? I'm OK with that. Data caps are asinine and fabricated for the sole purpose of segmenting the market and creating limits where there are none in order to create a new revenue model.

Net neutrality became a discussion topic in direct response to ISP's taking the first steps toward market segmentation. They introduced data caps as "trials" in specific markets and then the infamous attempt to charge netflix a special fee for access to their customers.

It was a combination of those two things that sparked peoples unrest. Data is not a finite resource. Bandwidth however can be, and they currently charge you based on bandwidth to much folks acceptance.

To the second, a paying customer should not be leveraged as an asset without their understanding and acceptance of this. If ISP's want to charge content providers for access to it's customers, then those customers should receive a reduced price on their service or at the very least know they are in a position to leverage a better price.

What ISP's want is to double dip. I get it. It's business, and in business you look for a position that grants you leverage in negotiations with other businesses in order to gain market share and profits. You don't think they do this? Cable providers use their customers as leverage when negotiating prices for advertisements on their networks. It's how I get bandwidth increases and price decreases yearly on my internet bill. I carry a cable subscription I don't use so that they can leverage better prices from advertisers. I know this and tell them to drop my subscription. They counter with a higher bill for internet only to which I say "OK" and they end up giving me what I was paying with HBO and speed increases.

And that really touches at the heart of things here for ISP's. As people cut cords companies like comcast are left with smaller metrics (and less leverage) when negotiating advertising deals. This is resulting in a loss of revenue and they are desperately searching for other forms of revenue.

The only reason net neutrality became a national talking point is because of these developments. Now, you could argue as Xenophobe does that the result of the legislation is not true to the issues that brought it to the table and I'd likely agree, though I'm not as versed in that to argue one way or the other.
Edited by Aemonn - 12/7/17 at 7:56am
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4770k Asus z87 Sabertooth EVGA 780 Classified Hydro Copper 16GB (2x8GB) Corsair Vengance Pro 
Hard DriveHard DriveCoolingCooling
Samsung 840 250GB SSD Sandisk 250gb SSD Alphacool NexXxoS UT60 Full Copper Dual 120mm R... XSPC D5 PWM Pump 
CoolingCoolingCoolingCooling
EK D5 X-Top Acetal Pump Top CSQ XSPC Photon 170 Alphacool NexXxos ST30 Full Copper Tripple 140m... Koolance 380i Waterblock 
CoolingCoolingOSMonitor
XSPC D5 PWM Pump Aquaero 5 LT Windows 7 Professional Dell 2709wfp 
MonitorPowerCase
Dell 2709wfp Corsair AX 860i Corsair 750D 
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Overclock.net › Forums › Industry News › Technology and Science News › [Ars] FCC won’t delay vote, says net neutrality supporters are “desperate”