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[VIDEOCARDZ] AMD has revealed the latest roadmap for Ryzen architecture. - Page 10

post #91 of 156
Quote:
Originally Posted by Liranan View Post

Intel removing ECC and VT-d from their chips are two of the three reasons I didn't buy one and bought an FX8320 instead.

In retrospect, that seems like a very poor choice lol
post #92 of 156
Quote:
Originally Posted by fleetfeather View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Liranan View Post

Intel removing ECC and VT-d from their chips are two of the three reasons I didn't buy one and bought an FX8320 instead.

In retrospect, that seems like a very poor choice lol

depends on the workload, FX series is pretty good for VMs.
post #93 of 156
Quote:
Originally Posted by fleetfeather View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Liranan View Post

Intel removing ECC and VT-d from their chips are two of the three reasons I didn't buy one and bought an FX8320 instead.

In retrospect, that seems like a very poor choice lol

If you mean a poor choice in Intel's part you are right, which is why they added VT-d back in later series starting with the 3xxx's. If you mean on my part, no, I use VM's every day and thus the chip has served me well.

 

While ECC doesn't matter that much thanks to extreme high speeds that DDR5 will achieve ECC might become standard so again, poor choice on Intel's part to remove it from their consumer chips but this is Intel. Their arrogance is now costing them.

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post #94 of 156
Quote:
Originally Posted by fleetfeather View Post

Nehalem and Westmere were on completely different sockets to Sandy Bridge, whereas Ryzen 2 is expected to stay on the same platform. Sure, if not constrained to the same platform, one might expect the sorts of gains you're referencing

Nehalem and Westmere to Lynfield was a decent platform change, integrating the pci-e controller and just using basically pci-e to connect to cpu to the rest of the system.. Intel could have made every 115X cpu work on the one socket if they wanted to. Sure they changed the way voltage regulation worked for Haswell but they didn't have to and we could have had one socket last 7+yrs if intel wasn't determined to milk us. There were even ddr3 boards that could take Skylake cpus, so they have a memory controller design that can do that.

Even as far as power goes, the i7-870 was 95W, so they had enough power pins on 1156 to support every mainstream cpu design they've come up with since including the 6 core i7 8700K.

Unlike Intel, AMD uses this sort of back and forwards compatibility as a feature.. there is no real reason for them to need to change from AM4 untill they want more pci-e lanes or different memory technology.
Edited by VeritronX - 12/17/17 at 3:18am
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post #95 of 156
Quote:
Originally Posted by VeritronX View Post

Nehalem and Westmere to Lynfield was a decent platform change, integrating the pci-e controller and just using basically pci-e to connect to cpu to the rest of the system.. Intel could have made every 115X cpu work on the one socket if they wanted to. Sure they changed the way voltage regulation worked for Haswell but they didn't have to and we could have had one socket last 7+yrs if intel wasn't determined to milk us. There were even ddr3 boards that could take Skylake cpus, so they have a memory controller design that can do that.

Even as far as power goes, the i7-870 was 95W, so they had enough power pins on 1156 to support every mainstream cpu design they've come up with since including the 6 core i7 8700K.

Unlike Intel, AMD uses this sort of back and forwards compatibility as a feature.. there is no real reason for them to need to change from AM4 untill they want more pci-e lanes or different memory technology.

I think you're greatly oversimplifying the changes in microarchitecture between generations of recent Intel CPUs, and underestimating how big of an impact such changes had on resulting performance

I don't doubt Intel changes chipsets more often than it needs to, though
post #96 of 156
Quote:
Originally Posted by fleetfeather View Post

I think you're greatly oversimplifying the changes in microarchitecture between generations of recent Intel CPUs, and underestimating how big of an impact such changes had on resulting performance

I don't doubt Intel changes chipsets more often than it needs to, though

I know they've made all sorts of changes, but if they had wanted to do it then making newer cpu's also backwards compatible would have been relatively simple. They could make an i7 8700K that would work in an 1156 or 1155 motherboard if they wanted to, but it would be hard mostly because the path they've chosen in the last 7yrs wasn't forged with compatibility in mind.

Hell they could probably have gone back to 1155 after 1150 relatively easily, they had platform management and UEFI on that, they would just need to update it. The i7 2700K was 95W so there was enough power there too.

Edit: I think I see the problem here.. you're mentioning architecture performance differences and relating them to a socket... An 115X motherboard doesn't really see or care much about the architecture of the cpu in it, all of that is mostly internal facing. It supplies requested voltages to certain pins, connects the dram directly to certain pins, connects the pci-e lane pins to the gpu slots (16x) and the chipset / PCH (4x, technically DMI but basically the same thing).

Have a look at these (1155 Z77, 1150 Z370) diagrams and note the (lack of) functional differences where the connection to the cpu occurs apart from display outputs for the iGPU instead of using the FDI like all other 115X sockets before 1151.

AM4 is designed in a similar way to 115X in this respect, except it has an additional 4x pci-e lanes intended for storage devices.
Edited by VeritronX - 12/17/17 at 4:29am
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post #97 of 156
Quote:
Originally Posted by VeritronX View Post

I know they've made all sorts of changes, but if they had wanted to do it then making newer cpu's also backwards compatible would have been relatively simple. They could make an i7 8700K that would work in an 1156 or 1155 motherboard if they wanted to, but it would be hard mostly because the path they've chosen in the last 7yrs wasn't forged with compatibility in mind.

Hell they could probably have gone back to 1155 after 1150 relatively easily, they had platform management and UEFI on that, they would just need to update it. The i7 2700K was 95W so there was enough power there too.

Edit: I think I see the problem here.. you're mentioning architecture performance differences and relating them to a socket... An 115X motherboard doesn't really see or care much about the architecture of the cpu in it, all of that is mostly internal facing. It supplies requested voltages to certain pins, connects the dram directly to certain pins, connects the pci-e lane pins to the gpu slots (16x) and the chipset / PCH (4x, technically DMI but basically the same thing).

Have a look at these (1155 Z77, 1150 Z370) diagrams and note the (lack of) functional differences where the connection to the cpu occurs apart from display outputs for the iGPU instead of using the FDI like all other 115X sockets before 1151.

AM4 is designed in a similar way to 115X in this respect, except it has an additional 4x pci-e lanes intended for storage devices.

I'm simply mentioning chipsets as a proxy for the underlying architectural changes across generations of Intel CPUs, and how upward shifts in performance across CPUs have a greater potential to occur if you don't have to design a CPU to be backwards compatible with previous products.

This at least was a conversation relating to the realistic potential gains we can expect to see from AMD's second crack at Zen, and the generational improvements that we can expect (and in what domains of performance, too)

I fully appreciate the flexibility of sockets themselves, and how Intel could have (if they wanted to) designed processors to work in prior generation sockets with potentially prior generation chipsets, but that likely would have further diminished what available performance gains we would've seen...
post #98 of 156
Quote:
Originally Posted by fleetfeather View Post

I'm simply mentioning chipsets as a proxy for the underlying architectural changes across generations of Intel CPUs, and how upward shifts in performance across CPUs have a greater potential to occur if you don't have to design a CPU to be backwards compatible with previous products.

This at least was a conversation relating to the realistic potential gains we can expect to see from AMD's second crack at Zen, and the generational improvements that we can expect (and in what domains of performance, too)

I fully appreciate the flexibility of sockets themselves, and how Intel could have (if they wanted to) designed processors to work in prior generation sockets with potentially prior generation chipsets, but that likely would have further diminished what available performance gains we would've seen...

It's not only about designing your product to work in an old socket but also designing your socket to work with a new product -- that is, compatibility can be taken into account when the socket itself is designed in order to allow for more flexibility and headroom (such as unused pins) for future designs.

In my opinion Intel does this for two reasons: 1) to avoid consumer confusion and frustration with the need to update the BIOS of old boards to accept new CPUs on the same socket, and more importantly 2) because this improves their margins and they have enough excuses to plausibly deny that this is their main motivation.

I'm not much of an expert but I don't see why Intel has to change sockets as often as they do -- yes, big changes to the platform and how things work do require the sockets to change, and such changes typically come with other significant changes and hence a significant performance delta, whereas products retaining compatibility on the Intel side are usually no more than refreshes -- but that doesn't mean that changes to the architecture impacting performance have anything to do with that. In fact, I'd wager that most of the changes affecting iterative improvements in IPC and frequency today have nothing to do with anything that'd impact socket compatibility.

Saying that Intel could still be on 1156 is definitely a stretch though; a lot of sacrifices would have to be made there, including a lot of new platform features. I wouldn't be surprised if even Zen2 comes on an AM4+ socket.
Edited by Usario - 12/17/17 at 6:28am
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post #99 of 156
Quote:
Originally Posted by Malinkadink View Post

I doubt anyone still with a 2500k is really crying over not getting a 2600k all those years ago. That said going for the 2600k back then would have made it a bit easier to still keep on using it today whereas the i5 people would be itching to upgrade. Regardless nearly 7 years of service from a 2500k or 2600k is nothing to be unhappy about.

That's true due in part that for 7 years, intel didn't have a 6-core mainstream product. Now that they do, games will start being released with 6 threads, 8 threads, 12 threads in mind.

4 cores will not hold like they did back then. It's like buying a dual core in 2009 and expecting it to last 7 years, or a single core in 2005.
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post #100 of 156
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Originally Posted by Buris View Post

That's true due in part that for 7 years, intel didn't have a 6-core mainstream product. Now that they do, games will start being released with 6 threads, 8 threads, 12 threads in mind.

4 cores will not hold like they did back then. It's like buying a dual core in 2009 and expecting it to last 7 years, or a single core in 2005.

Games have been being released with 6 threads in mind since 2013 with the consoles getting 8 cores to work with with 6 sometimes 7 threads i believe dedicated to the actual game. Whether that translated to the PC ports having higher thread support was hit or miss but yeah.
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