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Say Farewell to Putty as Microsoft adds an OpenSSH Client to Windows 10

1K views 15 replies 7 participants last post by  Petrol 
#1 ·
https://www.servethehome.com/say-farewell-putty-microsoft-adds-openssh-client-windows-10/
Quote:
Ask just about any *NIX admin using a Windows laptop and they will have come across Putty. For years, Apple MacBooks have been the go-to choice for many admins partly because getting to a ssh shell is so easy. The newly re-invigorated Microsoft is changing how easy it is to interface with Linux (and other *NIX flavors) significantly with features like Ubuntu on Windows. There is a new beta feature in Windows 10 that may just see the retirement of Putty from many users: an OpenSSH client and OpenSSH server application for Windows.
I just had to post this in light of the recurring discussions about lack of Linux apps. Well, I've been a PuTTY user for years and it's amongst the most craptacular of apps I have ever had the displeasure of using! To be fair it functions and it functions well as a shim application, but I don't need to tell you how awful the UI was if it's being replaced by a command-line app. Let's add this to Bash being included in NT 10, which has also been more popular than the addition of PowerShell to Linux, which nobody uses given how out-of-place an object-oriented scripting language is on *nix
 
#4 ·
This is in line with Microsoft's EEE philosophy.

They want developers to use Windows 10 instead of Linux so they are installing as many Linux features as possible.
 
#5 ·
Maybe, but on the other hand MS is contributing to open source so there's some reciprocity going on. If this really fits with the EEE business model, then why embrace anti-profit GNU code instead of just building on a BSD like Apple, Sony, Nintendo, etc. have done?
 
#6 ·
Quote:
Originally Posted by Petrol View Post

Maybe, but on the other hand MS is contributing to open source so there's some reciprocity going on. If this really fits with the EEE business model, then why embrace anti-profit GNU code instead of just building on a BSD like Apple, Sony, Nintendo, etc. have done?
Their goal is to entice people that are currently only using Linux to use the Linux environment that they have added to Windows 10 instead, which increases the Windows 10 user numbers and the profits they are likely making from data mining. If they truly "Love Linux" like they say, then they would have released Linux versions of Office and DirectX.
 
#7 ·
Quote:
Originally Posted by Diffident View Post

Their goal is to entice people that are currently only using Linux to use the Linux environment that they have added to Windows 10 instead, which increases the Windows 10 user numbers and the profits they are likely making from data mining. If they truly "Love Linux" like they say, then they would have released Linux versions of Office and DirectX.
It's reasonably astonishing that it's taken them this long to realize just how many people there are out there need to connect to unix machines to get their work done and their platform sucks for this.

Then again, I've seen tech companies similarly tone-deaf to their own employees' actual use-models for decades at a time.

As multiple authors have pointed out - their stubborn refusal to embrace terminal/X has cost them legions of users who use linux or osx instead because 3rd party terminal/X on top of already inherently unstable and reboot happy windows is just downright unpleasant to use if you aren't making your living smashing keys in one or more MSOffice apps.
 
#8 ·
also if they contribute to OS and then wait till he right time and yank out all funding and contributions that hurts too, and they've gained developers during the mean time.
 
#10 ·
Quote:
Originally Posted by Diffident View Post

This is in line with Microsoft's EEE philosophy.

They want developers to use Windows 10 instead of Linux so they are installing as many Linux features as possible.
This has been a wet dream for them for years but there is no way they can extinguish Linux as there is no other OS that can replace it. M$py have no presence in the server market and it's impossible for Win Server to actually become usable on mainframes. Routers, phones, tablets, T.V.'s etc. also can't be made to run Windows as Win RT was a spectacular failure for obvious reasons. The best M$py can do is transform Windows into a proprietary Linux distro, which isn't that unlikely as Linux is more stable than Windows and is the future of computing.
 
#11 ·
Quote:
Originally Posted by Liranan View Post

This has been a wet dream for them for years but there is no way they can extinguish Linux as there is no other OS that can replace it. M$py have no presence in the server market and it's impossible for Win Server to actually become usable on mainframes. Routers, phones, tablets, T.V.'s etc. also can't be made to run Windows as Win RT was a spectacular failure for obvious reasons. The best M$py can do is transform Windows into a proprietary Linux distro, which isn't that unlikely as Linux is more stable than Windows and is the future of computing.
As with all things - there is a spectrum of use-cases and users .

I bet there are an enormous number of "filthy casual" linux users who, if offered, would be happy to run ubuntu or suse WSL alongside their games without rebooting. I think they are very, very close to capturing a large plurality of linux users with a "good enough" solution.

At least right now, the environment is a kludge for real usage:
- need vcxsrv or equivalent Xwindows manager
- $DISPLAY settings generally once you do are wonky
- Xwindows performance is worse than "yawn". It appears to be SIGNIFICANTLY more stable using VcXsrv than things I've used in the past (ming, no-machine, vnc, etc...), but on a 4.5GHz 7980XE, 2x1080ti, I should never have to watch window tiles rendering when I re-size an emacs window... I certainly don't in native linux unless the system is heavily loaded.

It is much more stable - I can finally leave ssh'd -X windows open from a remote machine overnight on local GbE and/or 10GbE. Can't say I've ever had a system that could do that reliably.
- openSSH is "beta" so PKI with no pass-phrase doesn't work and setting up sshd appears to require a little tinkering.
- still can't open MSFT windows-windows remotely on another machine. Until I can - it's a toy to me.
- MSFT needs to get over this idea that they own the WM (explorer.exe) - full, native support of X would resolve most of the above and make a pretty compelling solution. I would not trust it to run long sims and its a resource hog, its disk I/O sucks, but I'm not everyone - see above on that "plurality of users".

However, despite these limitations, it is a LOT closer to actually usable as a unix desktop.

Given that, people who aren't asking as much will be happy with this and use it vs rebooting. Rebooting doesn't sound so bad in principle, but in practice, you always need to do it at the worst times. A computer that is just "there" ready to do your bidding is always more pleasant to use than one that requires you to boot it up, wait, organize your windows, etc...
 
#12 ·
Quote:
Originally Posted by cekim View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Liranan View Post

This has been a wet dream for them for years but there is no way they can extinguish Linux as there is no other OS that can replace it. M$py have no presence in the server market and it's impossible for Win Server to actually become usable on mainframes. Routers, phones, tablets, T.V.'s etc. also can't be made to run Windows as Win RT was a spectacular failure for obvious reasons. The best M$py can do is transform Windows into a proprietary Linux distro, which isn't that unlikely as Linux is more stable than Windows and is the future of computing.
As with all things - there is a spectrum of use-cases and users .

I bet there are an enormous number of "filthy casual" linux users who, if offered, would be happy to run ubuntu or suse WSL alongside their games without rebooting. I think they are very, very close to capturing a large plurality of linux users with a "good enough" solution.

At least right now, the environment is a kludge for real usage:
- need vcxsrv or equivalent Xwindows manager
- $DISPLAY settings generally once you do are wonky
- Xwindows performance is worse than "yawn". It appears to be SIGNIFICANTLY more stable using VcXsrv than things I've used in the past (ming, no-machine, vnc, etc...), but on a 4.5GHz 7980XE, 2x1080ti, I should never have to watch window tiles rendering when I re-size an emacs window... I certainly don't in native linux unless the system is heavily loaded.

It is much more stable - I can finally leave ssh'd -X windows open from a remote machine overnight on local GbE and/or 10GbE. Can't say I've ever had a system that could do that reliably.
- openSSH is "beta" so PKI with no pass-phrase doesn't work and setting up sshd appears to require a little tinkering.
- still can't open MSFT windows-windows remotely on another machine. Until I can - it's a toy to me.
- MSFT needs to get over this idea that they own the WM (explorer.exe) - full, native support of X would resolve most of the above and make a pretty compelling solution. I would not trust it to run long sims and its a resource hog, its disk I/O sucks, but I'm not everyone - see above on that "plurality of users".

However, despite these limitations, it is a LOT closer to actually usable as a unix desktop.

Given that, people who aren't asking as much will be happy with this and use it vs rebooting. Rebooting doesn't sound so bad in principle, but in practice, you always need to do it at the worst times. A computer that is just "there" ready to do your bidding is always more pleasant to use than one that requires you to boot it up, wait, organize your windows, etc...
Linux as a server is vastly different to Linux on the desktop, which is why I mentioned servers and embedded devices. Desktop Linux still has a long way to go but it is making strides but when it comes to servers M$py have nothing that can dispute it and probably will never be able to create anything that can come close due to their business model.
 
#13 ·
Quote:
Originally Posted by Liranan View Post

Linux as a server is vastly different to Linux on the desktop, which is why I mentioned servers and embedded devices. Desktop Linux still has a long way to go but it is making strides but when it comes to servers M$py have nothing that can dispute it and probably will never be able to create anything that can come close due to their business model.
Indeed (servers), but there is a large number of linux users who don't run servers or have a linux server, but use a windows desktop.

I didn't even consider using WLS as a server. That would expose you to all the worst things about windows (reboots, poor I/O, unstable, insecure, etc... )

Linux has penetrated/dominated the server and HPC market profoundly - did we not just see a stat showing 100% of the top whatever-hundred super-computers running linux? Whether Linux or a variation thereof, that market is already dominated by L/Unix as evidenced by the above and other things like MSFT SQL server on linux.

So, I was only considering the, large number of, linux users who still have windows to play games, deal with video (editing, recording) and the like. WLS, if improved from where it is presents a pretty enticing option to the non-dogmatic linux user here. I'd rather see linux present a pretty enticing option instead since MSFT seems genetically unable to produce secure operating systems and stable software.
 
#14 ·
Quote:
Originally Posted by cekim View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Liranan View Post

Linux as a server is vastly different to Linux on the desktop, which is why I mentioned servers and embedded devices. Desktop Linux still has a long way to go but it is making strides but when it comes to servers M$py have nothing that can dispute it and probably will never be able to create anything that can come close due to their business model.
Indeed (servers), but there is a large number of linux users who don't run servers or have a linux server, but use a windows desktop.

I didn't even consider using WLS as a server. That would expose you to all the worst things about windows (reboots, poor I/O, unstable, insecure, etc... )

Linux has penetrated/dominated the server and HPC market profoundly - did we not just see a stat showing 100% of the top whatever-hundred super-computers running linux? Whether Linux or a variation thereof, that market is already dominated by L/Unix as evidenced by the above and other things like MSFT SQL server on linux.

So, I was only considering the, large number of, linux users who still have windows to play games, deal with video (editing, recording) and the like. WLS, if improved from where it is presents a pretty enticing option to the non-dogmatic linux user here. I'd rather see linux present a pretty enticing option instead since MSFT seems genetically unable to produce secure operating systems and stable software.
For Windows to even begin to compete with Linux M$py would have to abandon NTFS and we know that won't happen. They are clinging to NTFS like there's no tomorrow, despite it being inefficient, terrible, not robust in anyway and outdated (it was outdated 10 years ago). This is why M$py stand no chance against (open)SUSE, the xbuntu's (including Mint), especially Ubuntu Server, CentOS, etc.

We are all now very familiar with M$py's EEE tactics so the Linux community must collectively have been dropped on their heads, rolled over by bulldozers, followed by steamrollers and then smashed with sledgehammers for fun if they allow M$py to contribute anything but open source to Linux. The best they can do is take from Linux without contributing, which is what Apple do with BSD. Even if M$py do contribute to Linux most developers will be wary of their intentions and immediately suspect EEE so will, most likely, stay clear and develop their own software without M$py's code.

Edit: after years of development ReFS still isn't ready for mass deployment due to it being buggy and lacks features that have existed in XFS and BtrFS.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ReFS

I achieve a maximum of 120MBps writing to the 3TB Toshiba DT01ACA300. The same drive formatted with XFS in Linux Mint 18.1 achieves 160 MBps and has redundancies.
 
#15 ·
Quote:
Originally Posted by Liranan View Post

For Windows to even begin to compete with Linux M$py would have to abandon NTFS and we know that won't happen. They are clinging to NTFS like there's no tomorrow, despite it being inefficient, terrible, not robust in anyway and outdated (it was outdated 10 years ago). This is why M$py stand no chance against (open)SUSE, the xbuntu's (including Mint), especially Ubuntu Server, CentOS, etc.
Yeah, I don't get them "clinging bitterly" to NTFS. It's not like you can't have it coexist with other FSs. It's not like it performs well at all. It's not like SMB is secure and stable.

I could understand if they had a "rock solid" foundation and were afraid to touch it, but its just not that...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lirann
We are all now very familiar with M$py's EEE tactics so the Linux community must collectively have been dropped on their heads, rolled over by bulldozers, followed by steamrollers and then smashed with sledgehammers for fun if they allow M$py to contribute anything but open source to Linux.
1. the strength of open source is that it should be able to tolerate evil motives for good actions. If the dogma of open-source has any truth (that the hive mind can produce more and better than the closed group over the long run) then that should be a given. If you are right that your model is better, then do your thing and flourish while the inherent failure in theirs causes them to eventually founder.

In truth, I think its a spectrum - there are products and problems that benefit from deep and narrow expertise that simply don't lend themselves to an full open source model - at least not initially. All innovation operates on a curve of novelty where value decays as your innovation becomes more widely understood, deployed and then replicated .

Open Source is a concept of "monetizing" innovation in ways beyond just currency and forcefully moving that curve of "commoditizing" around to defeat natural and government created software monopolies. Word Processors, Spreadsheets, Operating Systems, browsers, email, etc... the things that 99% of computer users do 99% of the time are as common and commodity as paper. That MSFT could still charge $300-$500 for them every 3-5 years is was absurd (as Dell demonstrated by purchasing it much cheaper and bundling it with a PC).

Short version - if you/we are right that open source is a virtue, then MSFT cannot change that with EEE

2. Linux community is not of one mind and one motive. There are as many MOs as their are users.

3. Interoperability is a virtue. It is the origin of efficiency on a PC and once obtained is extremely difficult to convince your users to give it up. MSFT may want to EEE things, but once they work together the proof of concept now allows open source to replace commodity functionality with OSS.

EDIT: 4. Time is life, life is time, time is money... young coders and engineers seem to lose sight of this. Paying for things that work and save you time is not a problem that needs to be solved. Making sure they actually work and that undue power is not concentrated over you and your data is a problem that never goes away.
 
#16 ·
Games and system stability were the reasons I stuck to Win 7 with PuTTY and VM for so long but I recently installed Steam on my new Linux desktop install and half my library is available natively, including my favorites like Europa Universalis IV and even the Metro 2033 franchise! Overall the Linux system is much better. There's no more stutter playing media from NFS mounts like there was with SMB, no more waiting 2+ hours for the system to backup unnecessary files over WiFi, and I can snapshot the mounted fs at boot so if I do a big whoops it can be rolled back instantly, guaranteeing stability.

The thing about Linux is that it can't be user-friendly because the amount of software and options are mind-bogglingly huge. The user needs to know what they're doing to really harness the advanced capabilities that can make Linux perform better than Windows in all situations except for running those "A+++" titles that rely on DirectX, but hey there's always WINE or VM with PCI passthrough for those. I don't really see the point bothering with it though, since there are lots of titles that run natively and many other ways to have fun on Linux that aren't even an option on Windows.

It's also nice not having to disable adware being pushed to me by default
tongue.gif
 
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