Source.According to a new report from German newspaper Redaktions Netzwerk Deutschland (RND), Germany's Interior Minister, Thomas de Maizièr, has written a draft proposal in which he would like German cars, as well as other digital devices being sold in Germany, to grant police backdoor access. The minister is expected to present the proposal at next week's Ministry of Interior conference.
Giving Police More Surveillance Powers
According to the RND report, the German minister would like intelligence agencies and police to gain "exclusive" access to cars, as well as digital devices such as computers, mobile devices, kitchen appliances, and smart TVs. The "back door" access would, in essence, allow the government to bypass the security protections some of these devices have. The police have been complaining that sometimes they can't install intercept equipment on some cars because their security systems are "too good."
Maizièr would also like cars and digital devices to have a "kill switch" the government can use at will to shut down certain devices, allegedly to stop cybercrime.
See its stuff like this that I think is the real threat to the public, far more so than anything any corporation can do. With the power governments wield they can enact stuff like this by fiat and there is no recourse for the people. Companies may be able to rip you off (at the expense of their public relations) but governments can do the same and a lot more by using the almighty power of the law. At the end of the day, the government is NOT your "friend", yet so many people nowadays want MORE government involved in every aspect of their lives...Originally Posted by tpi2007
Source.
The emissions scandal wasn't enough to tarnish the industry apparently.
Extremely good pointOriginally Posted by CynicalUnicorn
Let's ignore any issues about privacy, probable cause, innocent until proven guilty (which I don't believe Germany's legal system even uses), and so on.
If a backdoor is created, a backdoor can be discovered. Any time these are implemented, a third-party will be able to discover and abuse these. Want to shutdown random cars on the Autobahn during rush hour? Go for it! Why not? The capabilities are there.
These never end well.
The government is supposed to represent the people whereas companies represent themselves, that's a crucial difference. As I mentioned in the OP, some companies are not just 'ripping you off', they are willing to go so far as cheating regulations and contribute to global pollution, which kills hundreds of thousands of people every year. If that is not a serious misconduct of private entities, I don't know what is. Let me guess, not having the regulations that they cheated would have somehow led to a better outcome?Originally Posted by Majin SSJ Eric
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See its stuff like this that I think is the real threat to the public, far more so than anything any corporation can do. With the power governments wield they can enact stuff like this by fiat and there is no recourse for the people. Companies may be able to rip you off (at the expense of their public relations) but governments can do the same and a lot more by using the almighty power of the law. At the end of the day, the government is NOT your "friend", yet so many people nowadays want MORE government involved in every aspect of their lives...Originally Posted by tpi2007
Source.
The emissions scandal wasn't enough to tarnish the industry apparently.
Quote:Originally Posted by Majin SSJ Eric
See its stuff like this that I think is the real threat to the public, far more so than anything any corporation can do. With the power governments wield they can enact stuff like this by fiat and there is no recourse for the people. Companies may be able to rip you off (at the expense of their public relations) but governments can do the same and a lot more by using the almighty power of the law. At the end of the day, the government is NOT your "friend", yet so many people nowadays want MORE government involved in every aspect of their lives...
Way to completely avoid Majin's point.Originally Posted by tpi2007
The government is supposed to represent the people whereas companies represent themselves, that's a crucial difference. As I mentioned in the OP, some companies are not just 'ripping you off', they are willing to go so far as cheating regulations and contribute to global pollution, which kills hundreds of thousands of people every year. If that is not a serious misconduct of private entities, I don't know what is. Let me guess, not having the regulations that they cheated would have somehow led to a better outcome?
Oh, I am sure that Maizièr and the other politicians armored Mercedes will have no such tracking/controlling abilities installed. That is only for das volks. One of the surest ways to tell someone in power is full of crap, when it is do as I say not as I do.
OnStar is optional and specific to GM. Now SiriusXM is the one you should worry about. They pay big money to put their stuff in new cars and they can extract location data for law enforcement with a warrant.
But therein lies the problem. There is a disconnect between the theory and reality because the theory rests on the principle of people being good and pure. It is just much harder to hold gov accountable for their actions and they have too much authority over the rest of us so their actions are too influential and often permanent, unlike the actions of business that are usually short lived and localized. Also companies usually are held responsible for their actions, while the people are held responsible for gov's actions.Originally Posted by tpi2007
The government is supposed to represent the people whereas companies represent themselves, that's a crucial difference. As I mentioned in the OP, some companies are not just 'ripping you off', they are willing to go so far as cheating regulations and contribute to global pollution, which kills hundreds of thousands of people every year. If that is not a serious misconduct of private entities, I don't know what is. Let me guess, not having the regulations that they cheated would have somehow led to a better outcome?
This isn't an all or nothing discussion and people shouldn't have a one track mind a priori about the need or not need for regulations. Some are good, some are bad, like everything else in life. Critical thinking is where we go into the detail of each, its rationale and then evaluate it.
Counterproductive proposals that don't understand the core of the problem, such as the one in the news in the OP, are objectively that, regardless of whether the entity proposing it is public or private. The reach of said proposals can be big if deployed by a government, but harmful actions and / or lobbying by private, multinational conglomerates can be just as bad, it all depends on their size and influence.
Hey, at least the cars don't have to be always online to workOriginally Posted by andrews2547
But this sort of thing is already a problem. Chrysler vehicles had a backdoor in them that just about anyone who know what they're doing can take complete control of the vehicle. They don't even have to be near it, they could take control of the vehicle from just about anywhere with a WiFi connection.
Chrysler have since fixed it, but making it mandatory for all cars to have the same thing is incredibly stupid.
Great Point. I was thinking the same that just about EVERY "remote" new features in cars today allow access whether we knew about it or not.Originally Posted by andrews2547
But this sort of thing is already a problem. Chrysler vehicles had a backdoor in them that just about anyone who know what they're doing can take complete control of the vehicle. They don't even have to be near it, they could take control of the vehicle from just about anywhere with a WiFi connection.
Chrysler have since fixed it, but making it mandatory for all cars to have the same thing is incredibly stupid.
They fixed it but I think some firm claimed it is still there just encrypted. And you don't know how many other manufacturers have something similar as well.Originally Posted by andrews2547
But this sort of thing is already a problem. Chrysler vehicles had a backdoor in them that just about anyone who know what they're doing can take complete control of the vehicle. They don't even have to be near it, they could take control of the vehicle from just about anywhere with a WiFi connection.
Chrysler have since fixed it, but making it mandatory for all cars to have the same thing is incredibly stupid.
The government is an emanation of the people and is supposed to represent them. If you don't agree, in a democracy you can vote for another party that doesn't have the same line of thinking; you can form a new party; you can challenge the law in court and you can also protest on the street. Saying that there is no recourse is not accurate.Originally Posted by essanbee
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Quote:Originally Posted by Majin SSJ Eric
See its stuff like this that I think is the real threat to the public, far more so than anything any corporation can do. With the power governments wield they can enact stuff like this by fiat and there is no recourse for the people. Companies may be able to rip you off (at the expense of their public relations) but governments can do the same and a lot more by using the almighty power of the law. At the end of the day, the government is NOT your "friend", yet so many people nowadays want MORE government involved in every aspect of their lives...
Originally Posted by tpi2007
The government is supposed to represent the people whereas companies represent themselves, that's a crucial difference. As I mentioned in the OP, some companies are not just 'ripping you off', they are willing to go so far as cheating regulations and contribute to global pollution, which kills hundreds of thousands of people every year. If that is not a serious misconduct of private entities, I don't know what is. Let me guess, not having the regulations that they cheated would have somehow led to a better outcome?
Way to completely avoid Majin's point.
It depends on the governing system as I said and it also depends on the company you're talking about. Multinational conglomerates that have millions of dollars to spend on lobbying, that hop from country to country to pay less taxes as they wish and that get treated preferentially every step of the way are sometimes even a bigger problem than local governments. They should both be criticized and countered wherever it matters.Originally Posted by rluker5
But therein lies the problem. There is a disconnect between the theory and reality because the theory rests on the principle of people being good and pure. It is just much harder to hold gov accountable for their actions and they have too much authority over the rest of us so their actions are too influential and often permanent, unlike the actions of business that are usually short lived and localized. Also companies usually are held responsible for their actions, while the people are held responsible for gov's actions.
This attempt at gaining control over devices and cars is an obvious attempt by some in gov to fix some of the consequences of an unpopular gov action. It won't fix them all. It's like the old lady who swallowed the fly.
Quoted for truth.
The theories behind republican government don't make any such assumptions, but they do assume that the government is accountable to those they ostensibly represent, and this is where reality diverges.
People that advocate intentional security holes present a fantasy scenario where only they will have the keys and that they are largely incorruptible.Originally Posted by andrews2547
But this sort of thing is already a problem. Chrysler vehicles had a backdoor in them that just about anyone who know what they're doing can take complete control of the vehicle. They don't even have to be near it, they could take control of the vehicle from just about anywhere with a WiFi connection.
Chrysler have since fixed it, but making it mandatory for all cars to have the same thing is incredibly stupid.
You don't have to pay for OnStar in order for COPS to stop or track your car. I know for a fact my BMW has a similar tracking system, as does Mercedes-Benz.
I don't view government (or the private sector) as universally "bad" by any means. The Constitution as written (speaking only about the US of course) is a brilliant document that avoided most of the overreach that we see in American government today, and the ideas of those founding members were revolutionary and without widespread precedent at the time. Unfortunately, over the centuries, that basic idea that the government was NOT necessarily the "friend" of the people and could eventually become outright enemies was slowly stripped away(remember they were trying to create a new form of government in the wake of having to deal with tyrannical monarchy of England), so it included safeguards that protected the people FROM the government itself (i.e. the Bill of Rights) and didn't even consider such bureaucracies that have completely taken over modern US policies and enforcement that are NOT subject to the usual check on government power; voting.Originally Posted by tpi2007
The government is supposed to represent the people whereas companies represent themselves, that's a crucial difference. As I mentioned in the OP, some companies are not just 'ripping you off', they are willing to go so far as cheating regulations and contribute to global pollution, which kills hundreds of thousands of people every year. If that is not a serious misconduct of private entities, I don't know what is. Let me guess, not having the regulations that they cheated would have somehow led to a better outcome?
This isn't an all or nothing discussion and people shouldn't have a one track mind a priori about the need or not need for regulations. Some are good, some are bad, like everything else in life. Critical thinking is where we go into the detail of each, its rationale and then evaluate it.
Counterproductive proposals that don't understand the core of the problem, such as the one in the news in the OP, are objectively that, regardless of whether the entity proposing it is public or private. The reach of said proposals can be big if deployed by a government, but harmful actions and / or lobbying by private, multinational conglomerates can be just as bad, it all depends on their size and influence.
I'm aware of that. But GM doesn't build it into every car they make AFAIK. I expect it from luxury cars since every bullet point is a competitive edge, even if its frivolous. However, I do know that most modern cars are equipped with SiriusXM functionality. (IMO Sirius SUCKS, I don't know why they bother.)
It's in the Vauxhall/Opel Corsa which is an entry level car that starts at £9720/€12,131 which is around $12K USD or as little as £104 ($138 USD) per month on finance with a £99 ($130 USD) deposit.Originally Posted by Omega X
I'm aware of that. But GM doesn't build it into every car they make AFAIK. I expect it from luxury cars since every bullet point is a competitive edge, even if its frivolous. However, I do know that most modern cars are equipped with SiriusXM functionality. (IMO Sirius SUCKS, I don't know why they bother.)