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Why WC when you can Phase? - Page 7

post #61 of 71
Quote:
Originally Posted by NamelessMC View Post

Pro's of phase + water:
Voltage increases are limitless
Ungodly stability with over-clocks on CPU
Most stability you can get with over-clocking
Voltage increases are not limitless. Overvolting any product, regardless of heat, can harm a device. Also, a cpu is either stable or unstable, so what are you basing these 2 stability statements on?
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post #62 of 71
Quote:
Originally Posted by sccr64472 View Post
Voltage increases are not limitless. Overvolting any product, regardless of heat, can harm a device. Also, a cpu is either stable or unstable, so what are you basing these 2 stability statements on?
It's called stability, you should learn about it before you question someone like that and try to sound hostile.

You can run a 1.8 voltage through a CPU just as well on water as you can on phase, yes, but on phase you can run a really high voltage and basically the only limitations you'll reach are the limitations of the CPU's architecture itself.

On water you don't get that luxury. On water there's still a limitation of what you can do based on the temperatures water can give you.

There's a reason Phase change set-ups hit 4.2-4.5 GHZ on the same processors water can only hit 3.8 on, that's called the voltage management temperatures.

Stop being so critical when you knew what I meant.

If you fry a motherboard on Phase, I guarantee you it had nothing to do with voltage settings and everything to do with condensation and circuitry.
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post #63 of 71
Quote:
Originally Posted by NamelessMC View Post
You can run a 1.8 voltage through a CPU just as well on water as you can on phase, yes, but on phase you can run a really high voltage and basically the only limitations you'll reach are the limitations of the CPU's architecture itself.

On water you don't get that luxury. On water there's still a limitation of what you can do based on the temperatures water can give you.

There's a reason Phase change set-ups hit 4.2-4.5 GHZ on the same processors water can only hit 3.8 on, that's called the voltage management temperatures.
Minor note...

The limitation are of the architecture and of the inherent chip flaws. Even if you have a chip at -180C, it may not overclock that well due to some minor flaws that are causing some electromigration. The chip might operate fine normally but pushing the chip may reveal these flaws.
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post #64 of 71
Quote:
Originally Posted by DuckieHo View Post
Minor note...

The limitation are of the architecture and of the inherent chip flaws. Even if you have a chip at -180C, it may not overclock that well due to some minor flaws that are causing some electromigration. The chip might operate fine normally but pushing the chip may reveal these flaws.
Aren't you just adding definition to what I said? I would think flaws in a chip are part of the limitations of the architecture.

Limitations of the architecture is basically saying, "Hey, whatever happens, it's because of the processor itself and not a fault of the voltage settings or clock frequency."

Phase and Liquid Nitrogen are the only two cooling methods that can so frequently get you to the point where the only limitation is the chip itself and not cooling.

Water-cooling is great, worth the money to me, hence my vote being WC over Phase, but WC still has its temperature limitations which is why there's a Pentium 4 at 8000 mhz on Phase or LN2 and not on water.
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post #65 of 71
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by cognoscenti View Post
wow thats really cold temps...

This qx6800 factory at 2.9 runs hotter than that.
I have the same cooler as you.
I was very surprised too. Those temps are from ProbeII and Everest. My ambient temp right now is 24c and I'm idle with just some office/trading stuff open at 33c at 3.44Ghz.

a few things to consider;
1. I've got 8 fans in this CM Stacker 830 EVO.
2. I've oriented the Zalman differently than your unit which was I was told would be superior...don't know why though.
3. I read in the NV forum that Asus might be reporting the wrong sensor information to both Probe and Everest. This is possible but I don't think so because I watched those temps hit 65c on orthos when I tried it at 3.6ghz and orthos automatically shut down. So unless orthos is also reading from that sensor then I would say they are accurate but frankly I'm not 100% sure. Maybe it is different under the new bios. I'm running 1002.
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post #66 of 71
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by cognoscenti View Post
wow thats cheap
That would be cheap to you - you live in London!!!

When I lived there I noticed that everything was double the price that it was in North America. Computers were worse. I was stuck and had to get a Thinkpad which cost me $8,000Cdn in '99- If I could have waited a month to come home it would have been about $3,500Cdn.
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post #67 of 71
water cooling @ the cost of 550 CDN, thats outrageous, i payed that total and am running my GPU in there as well, in comparrison you could set up a peltiered WC CPU only loop for less then the cost of a phase, or at least for now...OCZ phase cooler?... and the performance would be subthermal and the clocks you could pull would be great, and if you care not to pay so much for a gorgeous handcrafted waterblock then go with the D-Tek FuZion, it performs great on quad cores and everything, has a large surface and would be great for a pelt sandwich...and i love water!

@ mhw100 update your MoBo bios to the new 1002 thats being released today, it has proper support for the QX6800
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post #68 of 71
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by H3||scr3am View Post
water cooling @ the cost of 550 CDN, thats outrageous, i payed that total and am running my GPU in there as well, in comparrison you could set up a peltiered WC CPU only loop for less then the cost of a phase, or at least for now...OCZ phase cooler?... and the performance would be subthermal and the clocks you could pull would be great, and if you care not to pay so much for a gorgeous handcrafted waterblock then go with the D-Tek FuZion, it performs great on quad cores and everything, has a large surface and would be great for a pelt sandwich...and i love water!

@ mhw100 update your MoBo bios to the new 1002 thats being released today, it has proper support for the QX6800
Well, if you price out the parts on ncix or even the US distributors I think you will find it's in that range by the time you get the quality fans and other bits in there. My shopping list is here: http://www.overclock.net/water-cooli...ist-water.html

I am leaning towards the FuZion over the GTX now so thanks for the confirmation.

In reading the pelt threads here and elsewhere as well as reviews of them I'm not convinced there is any good commercial units. I'll look at the OCZ unit you mention and thanks for the lead. Seems you have to DYI like Ira-k did. Even the Arctic Web job that everyone thinks is about the best of them all has problems.

I think my QX6700 was in the prior bios but hopefully they've done something to fix the lack of fsb in this latest one.
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post #69 of 71
Quote:
Originally Posted by mhw100 View Post
The differences seem to be;

1. Cost; wc > phase.
2. Setup hassle: phase > wc e.g. insulating mb etc.
3. Ongoing ease of operation; phase > wc e.g. to remove mb doesn't require draining etc.
4. Risk; wc > phase e.g. if mb is insulated properly then less chance of frying something than with water etc.
5. Danger; phase > wc e.g. blow up possible but seems unlikely with the retail units.
6. Performance; phase > water e.g. 'nuff said.

In summary it looks like if budget (and the hobby/fun factor) wasn't an issue then you would almost be crazy not to go to a retail phase unit.

Even in terms of cost how much more is it really? I priced out a pretty good system with the great help of all the guys on this thread http://www.overclock.net/water-cooli...ist-water.html and by substituting out the Swiftech GTX for the StingerV8 and to get everything to my door is close to $550CDN depending on shipping, availability, miscellaneous sundries etc. This is might be a little high but not a mile off.

The cost of a Lightspeed or MachII is something like $1000CDN. My question is; is an extra $450CDN worth the extra performance, ongoing ease of getting into the mb and lack of potential leakage worth it?

Am I missing something in this analysis?
Nice overview of the differences. I think you should make it clearer what you mean by ">" because in one item it means "worse than" but in the next it means "better than". Consistency is always a plus!
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post #70 of 71
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by stargate125645 View Post
Nice overview of the differences. I think you should make it clearer what you mean by ">" because in one item it means "worse than" but in the next it means "better than". Consistency is always a plus!
Ok - I'll update it.
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