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The Big Question. Air or water? - Page 2

post #11 of 37
Quote:
Originally Posted by pauldovi View Post


I can prove that air can match any watercooling systems.
No, you prove otherwise.

It's PHYSICS that water has a higher thermal conductivity than air. Period. There's no argument there, it's FACT.

Water has over 23 times the thermal capacity air does, and it takes more surface area to transfer heat with air than it does with water. Water takes a LOT of thermal increase before its temperature changes drastically.

Water has a thermal conductivity of 0.6062 W/ (m*K), and air only has a conductivity of .0262. Water also has a much higher specific heat capacity than air (1.0 J/ (kg*K) versus 0.24), which means it takes more heat for temperatures to rise in water than it does with air. Water also allows you to transfer the heat from its source, to the radiator where heat is more efficiently dissipated and the water is cooled, which is a more efficient way of dissipating heat than a heatsink. With a heatsink, the temperatures are maintained and attempted to be stabilized.

With water cooling, the heat is dissipated.

Some people on this forum are getting atrocious with their false arguments.
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post #12 of 37
Quote:
Originally Posted by NamelessMC View Post
No, you prove otherwise.

It's PHYSICS that water has a higher thermal conductivity than air. Period. There's no argument there, it's FACT.

Water has over 23 times the thermal capacity air does, and it takes more surface area to transfer heat with air than it does with water. Water takes a LOT of thermal increase before its temperature changes drastically.

Water has a thermal conductivity of 0.6062 W/ (m*K), and air only has a conductivity of .0262. Water also has a much higher specific heat capacity than air (1.0 J/ (kg*K) versus 0.24), which means it takes more heat for temperatures to rise in water than it does with air. Water also allows you to transfer the heat from its source, to the radiator where heat is more efficiently dissipated and the water is cooled, which is a more efficient way of dissipating heat than a heatsink. With a heatsink, the temperatures are maintained and attempted to be stabilized.

With water cooling, the heat is dissipated.

Some people on this forum are getting atrocious with their false arguments.
Just because water is a better thermal agent, doesn't mean that air cannot achieve the same performance. If you obtain flow rates that are high enough with air, then you will match that of water.

Although it is not really practical, it is physically possible. You said it is impossible....

If you moved 23x the mass of air past the processor than water (if you are right about it being 23x faster, I don't have time to check), then the air will obtain the same performance.

It isn't scientifically impossible.
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post #13 of 37
Quote:
Originally Posted by pauldovi View Post
Just because water is a better thermal agent, doesn't mean that air cannot achieve the same performance. If you obtain flow rates that are high enough with air, then you will match that of water.

Although it is not really practical, it is physically possible. You said it is impossible....

If you moved 23x the mass of air past the processor than water (if you are right about it being 23x faster, I don't have time to check), then the air will obtain the same performance.

It isn't scientifically impossible.
Is it possible to hit the same temps with SOME air as SOME water? Of course, yes.

Is it possible for the best mainstream air cooling to match the best water cooling? No. Not debatable. The answer is a simple and profound no.

I've worked with the Tuniq Tower 120, Ultra 120 and budget coolers like the AC Freezer 7 Pro.

The bottom line is, there's only a handful of reasons I would go with an expensive air set up versus a water set up:

I can't afford air.
I move my PC a lot. A lot being once every day or every few days.

In any other situation, if you can afford water, get water. Period.

If you want to compare, then show me this-
http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/...&postcount=310

E6600 at 4GHZ Super Pi 32m run with 43c load temp, and 40c load temp at 3.6GHZ Orthos blend 10 hours +.

Show me that with air cooling, and I'll agree that crazy ultra air cooling can match "decent" water cooling. (He's on a Swiftech H2O-220, hardly top of the line, but decent enough to put a good chip to high speeds)
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post #14 of 37
Water does not have to be that expensive. There are plenty of good used parts for sale or if you are good with tools, it is not that hard to build a custom setup.
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post #15 of 37
For your dollar I bet air cooling has more performance. Get an Ultra 120 Extreme and FM121 for about $70 total. I bet that has similar performance to a $120 WC setup. For the sake of staying on topic to the OP, I would go with air cooling since you will get good results staying under 50C with a good cooler and a good fan.
post #16 of 37
For the cost air is more cost effective. But if you intend to get the most extreme overclocking possible then you have to go water. Also if you hate noise then you really should go water it is much quieter.
post #17 of 37
Quote:
Originally Posted by NamelessMC View Post
Is it possible to hit the same temps with SOME air as SOME water? Of course, yes.

Is it possible for the best mainstream air cooling to match the best water cooling? No. Not debatable. The answer is a simple and profound no.

I've worked with the Tuniq Tower 120, Ultra 120 and budget coolers like the AC Freezer 7 Pro.

The bottom line is, there's only a handful of reasons I would go with an expensive air set up versus a water set up:

I can't afford air.
I move my PC a lot. A lot being once every day or every few days.

In any other situation, if you can afford water, get water. Period.

If you want to compare, then show me this-
http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/...&postcount=310

E6600 at 4GHZ Super Pi 32m run with 43c load temp, and 40c load temp at 3.6GHZ Orthos blend 10 hours +.

Show me that with air cooling, and I'll agree that crazy ultra air cooling can match "decent" water cooling. (He's on a Swiftech H2O-220, hardly top of the line, but decent enough to put a good chip to high speeds)
Quote:
Originally Posted by NamelessMC
Scientifically it's impossible for air cooling to transfer heat as fast as water does.

Quote:
Originally Posted by NamelessMC
Some people on this forum are getting atrocious with their false arguments.
The fact of the matter is, air can provide ample cooling for someone on a budget. Water should be a hobby.
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post #18 of 37
Thread Starter 
I don't suppose tec's like this one would make much more difference than those tuniq towers....would it? http://www.tigerdirect.com/applicati...734&CatId=2545
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post #19 of 37
Quote:
Originally Posted by pauldovi View Post
The fact of the matter is, air can provide ample cooling for someone on a budget. Water should be a hobby.
But I didn't say otherwise, and you didn't say that. You said you'd match water cooling with air, where are those results?

All I'm saying is, just because air is more cost efficient doesn't give anyone the right OR backing to go around and tell people, "air is just as good as water!". I'm getting kind of sick of it. People go around using single sample examples as "proof" for outrageous claims.

Under $100 can you do a lot with air? Yeah of course. But why spend $100 on air? Why do that when you can get NEAR that performance with a $30 cooler and a $4 fan?

I'd put an Arctic Cooling Freezer Pro up against any cooler on the market, 6 days out of the week and I guarantee it'd hold its weight. I'd put a Yate Loon D12SL-12 up against a FM121 fan 6 days out of a week and I guarantee that'd hold it's weight too.

My point is, why spend $70-100 on air, when the whole POINT of air is to be able to spend $20-40 and get good over-clocking results? Is the Ultra 120/Tuniq Tower a good cooler? Hell yes it is, but is it worth the $35 difference over other coolers? In my opinion no.

There's a huge void between what I consider adequate air cooling and bare minimum water cooling. The most I think people should spend on CPU heatsinks is $34.99 and the least I think people should spend on water cooling is $160, but those are the standards I set based on performance numbers. A $120 water cooling kit won't give enough performance to justify the jump from a $30 air heatsink to the $120 water cooling, and a $60 CPU cooler also won't justify the marginal performance jump from a $20 AC Freezer Pro cooler.

Just because I think water is better than air doesn't mean I don't think each type of cooling has its bad decisions. If you try to build a $100 water cooling kit, I'll definitely question its credibility and performance nowadays. 2 years ago you might've been able to get away with it, but not today. Today's CPUs run hotter and today's air coolers run cooler, so when you get to the $100 margin, it's more of a "why do that?" ultimatum. Why get a $60 air cooler when a $20 air cooler does the same? Why get a $120 water cooling set up when a $20-30 air cooler offers the same performance numbers, less hassle and more stability?

The bottom line is, for the big question- If you don't do aggressive over-clocking, you're in a cold part of the world and you don't have a lot to spend, air rocks. Air cooling is only getting better and better, but the cons are NOT invisible. Good heatsinks take up a lot of space and don't over-clock as well as water. Air heatsinks are also a little less tolerant of higher ambient temperatures and confined spaces. Taking the door off your case will affect air cooling a lot more than water.

If you plan on taking your OC to the limit, you're in a higher ambient area or you just plain want to throw good money into cooling, water is the way to go. Water, done right, is more stable, quieter and a much better cooling route than air. Water cooling will always be better than water, if anything, just because of physics and noise. The cons of water cooling are also NOT invisible. Water cooling requires attention to detail, maintenance and a decent budget to be done right. You can't "half-ass" water cooling. Done right, you get the best performance for your money, good over-clocks, a very cool looking case and rock solid stability and safety. Done wrong, it's like jumping into the ocean with your computer strapped to your back.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MasterShake View Post
I don't suppose tec's like this one would make much more difference than those tuniq towers....would it? http://www.tigerdirect.com/applicati...734&CatId=2545
Thermal electric coolers are the best air heatsinks in the business honestly. The problem is: Cost and aesthetics. They take a lot of power to operate, they're very massively huge and they're very expensive. $130 for a TEC is treading on the door steps of affordable water cooling and the performance isn't THAT much better.

An Ultra ChillTec will definitely cool better than a Tuniq Tower or Ultra 120, but at the cost of double? Not worth it.
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post #20 of 37
Thread Starter 
So ur sayin watercooling can still way outperform a tec like that? cuz i've seen some benchmarks where a +4600 cpu was taken to 2904MHz stable at 37°c.
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