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post #41 of 88
Quote:
Originally Posted by pauldovi View Post
What does MB/s per Mhz tell us? I do not believe this is any useful information. You information does not tell us how fast it is.
I think you need to review the math again. Or understand how you can't compare two things unless a control is involved.
    
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post #42 of 88
Quote:
Originally Posted by Choggs396 View Post
I think you need to review the math again. Or understand how you can't compare two things unless a control is involved.
No, I am sorry.

The variable in my experiment is memory speed. The constant is the processor speed and processor bus.

A good experiment has only one variable, everything else is a constant. Now I will admit that my latencies are different, however, the experiment is still valid because the high latencies would favor a smaller increase.

I am not sure how you think dividing the bandwidth by the Mhz is an indication of anything, let alone a control.

A control would be a standard. In this case the 1:1 ratio is the control.

Again, what does your expression tell us? Nothing.
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post #43 of 88
Quote:
Originally Posted by Choggs396 View Post
I think you need to review the math again. Or understand how you can't compare two things unless a control is involved.
Choggs396,

Unless I am mistaken, your numbers do prove a certain type of efficiency as far as mhz compared to bandwidth. But efficiency and performance can mean different things. I think that there may be two different arguments going on here.

Correct me if I am wrong with this little analogy:

Choggs386: You get the most miles per gallon driving 55 miles per hour. (True)
pauldovi: You can go a lot faster than 55 miles per hour. (True)
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post #44 of 88
Pauldovi,

I said:
Quote:
A 1:1 ratio will typically run faster compared to memory running at the same speed that is out of sync on tests like 3DMark or PCMark.
You said:
Quote:
A good experiment has only one variable, everything else is a constant.
That is EXACTLY why I had to do the math FOR YOU, because you were testing different MEMORY SPEEDS.

And you contradict yourself by saying this:
Quote:
The variable in my experiment is memory speed. The constant is the processor speed and processor bus.
You contradicted yourself because that would mean there are TWO VARIABLES. One being the MEMORY SPEED and one being the RATIO. From the quote above I WAS TRYING TO DISCERN HOW THE RATIO, NOT MEMORY SPEED IN MEGAHERTZ, makes performance better.

When you gave your numbers, yes you ran at different ratios, but of course the bandwidths were better with the un-synced ratios because THE SPEEDS WERE HIGHER. I'LL REPEAT, I SAID THIS:

Quote:
A 1:1 ratio will typically run faster compared to memory running at the same speed that is out of sync on tests like 3DMark or PCMark.
Notice the BOLD in the quote above, especially the words SAME SPEED. I had to use MATH in order to break the numbers you had given me to show how bandwidth was better AT THE SAME MEGAHERTZ SPEED using the RATIOS as the ONE VARIABLE.

Sorry I keep repeating myself and using capitols, but anyone should have understood what I am saying by now, and it's the only way I have left to reiterate this information which has a clear factual basis.

If you can't understand this by now, there is no method I know short of explaining basic junior high school mathematical and scientific reasoning methods, which I believe would be pointless and tedious at the least.
    
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post #45 of 88
Quote:
Originally Posted by Choggs396 View Post
My proof:

3224 MB/s ÷ 400MHz = 8.06 MB/s per 1MHz with 1:1 Ratio
3774 MB/s ÷ 600MHz = 6.29 MB/s per 1MHz with 2:3 Ratio
4047 MB/s ÷ 800MHz = 5.06 MB/s per 1MHz with 1:2 Ratio

So if you can read the math correctly, then the bold clearly shows a decrease in real bandwidth at the same speed using un-synced ratios.
Too bad your ridiculous oversight proved your 'proof' to be inconclusive on more than one level.

A ) The 1:1 ratio test was done on 4-4-4-12 versus 5-5-5-18 like the other two dividers which really makes that data point irrelevant.
B ) There is a law for ram that says as you increase frequency you lose efficiency. This has nothing to do with 1:1 just ram's characteristic of losing efficiency with speed.
C ) Trying to say that 1:1 is better and saying fastest per clock real ram speed are NOT necessarily against one another. Running up the FSB to 550 and using a low multi 1:1 can conceivably max out your ram's speed and keep the 1:1. BUT IT IS BETTER PERFORMANCE TO MAX YOUR RAM SPEED WITH A HIGHER DIVIDER THAN LEAVE YOUR RAM UNDER IT'S MAX WITH A 1:1.

All else equal, faster ram speed always wins.
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post #46 of 88
Quote:
Originally Posted by CL3P20 View Post
You do know that you CAN adjust memory speeds without adjusting CPU speeds? oh..of course you knew.
That comment contributed nothing.
    
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post #47 of 88
Quote:
Originally Posted by Choggs396 View Post
I said:


You said:


That is EXACTLY why I had to do the math FOR YOU, because you were testing different MEMORY SPEEDS.

And you contradict yourself by saying this:


You contradicted yourself because that would mean there are TWO VARIABLES. One being the MEMORY SPEED and one being the RATIO. From the quote above I WAS TRYING TO DISCERN HOW THE RATIO, NOT MEMORY SPEED IN MEGAHERTZ, makes performance better.

When you gave your numbers, yes you ran at different ratios, but of course the bandwidths were better with the un-synced ratios because THE SPEEDS WERE HIGHER. I'LL REPEAT, I SAID THIS:



Notice the BOLD in the quote above. I had to use MATH in order to break the numbers you had given me to show how bandwidth was better AT THE SAME MEGAHERTZ SPEED using the RATIOS as the ONE VARIABLE.

Sorry I keep repeating myself and using capitols, but anyone should have understood what I am saying by now, and it's the only way I have left to reiterate this information which has a clear factual basis.
No need to yell man, yikes.

A memory ratio or divider is not another variable. It is just a way to describe the relationship between the memory speed and the CPU FSB.

The memory ratio = Memory Speed divided by the CPU FSB. If the CPU FSB is a constant, the only variable in the memory ratio is the memory speed.

In my experiment there was only one variable, and that is the memory speed.


I would love for you to tell me how you can test different "dividers" while leaving all other factors as constants. That is impossible.

Quote:
Notice the BOLD in the quote above. I had to use MATH in order to break the numbers you had given me to show how bandwidth was better AT THE SAME MEGAHERTZ SPEED using the RATIOS as the ONE VARIABLE.
You cannot remove a variable by inserting into a function...
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post #48 of 88
Quote:
BETTER PERFORMANCE TO MAX YOUR RAM SPEED WITH A HIGHER DIVIDER THAN LEAVE YOUR RAM UNDER IT'S MAX WITH A 1:1.
Thankyou for that dukes. I was grasping for the words. Most people arent lucky enough to have RAM soo leet' that they can actually max out their CPU OC...so for them a 1:1 is as good as it gets. Their RAM limits them from even having a 3:4 or 2:3 at a high FSB.

But which is faster..a 3.6ghz/ 1:1 @ 500mhz, or a 3.6ghz @ 500mhz/ 2:3 ? ....its not hard to tell. LOL
post #49 of 88
Quote:
Originally Posted by Choggs396 View Post
Wow, no offense, but you're a lost cause. The numbers are there. They don't lie. I'm done trying to explain it to you.

Because you still fail to understand the logic of my original claim:
Yes, the numbers are there. They don't lie. Why don't we take a step back to those number?

Quote:
@ 1:1 DDR2-400 Memory bandwidth = 3224MB/s
@ 2:3 DDR2-600 Memory bandwidth = 3774MB/s
@ 1:2 DDR2-800 Memory bandwidth = 4047MB/s
Then I still ask:

Quote:
I would love for you to tell me how you can test different "dividers" while leaving all other factors as constants. That is impossible.
and please explain what MB/s / MHz tells us in terms of performance?

You realize that I am not the only one that disagrees with you....
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post #50 of 88
Quote:
Originally Posted by CL3P20 View Post
Thankyou for that dukes. I was grasping for the words. Most people arent lucky enough to have RAM soo leet' that they can actually max out their CPU OC...so for them a 1:1 is as good as it gets. Their RAM limits them from even having a 3:4 or 2:3 at a high FSB.

But which is faster..a 3.6ghz/ 1:1 @ 500mhz, or a 3.6ghz @ 500mhz/ 2:3 ? ....its not hard to tell. LOL
I absolutely GUARANTEE YOU if you were to run two tests, one with a 3.6GHz @ 1:1 RAM/FSB with RAM @ 800MHz ACTUAL SPEED VS. a 3.6GHz @ 2:3 RAM/FSB with RAM @ 800MHz ACTUAL SPEED, the former would perform better.

EDIT: And Some Proof can be found In the Link in my avatar.
    
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