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The Cool Quad: Is This Odd? - Page 3

post #21 of 46
Thread Starter 
If you read the documentation on Core Temp you would know why. The only people getting good temps on Core Temp are probably living in Ice Chests or running Pelts.
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post #22 of 46
Quote:
Originally Posted by CyberDruid View Post
If you read the documentation on Core Temp you would know why. The only people getting good temps on Core Temp are probably living in Ice Chests or running Pelts.
So are you saying that by using coretemp or adding 15C to speedfan, that I'm actually over-reading the proper temperature.
ASUS actually had it right? PC Probe works?
Do you mind pointing me to this documentation? Everything I've read points to the opposite.

EDIT : it looks like coretemp officially supports Kentsfiel's http://www.thecoolest.zerobrains.com...owitworks.html
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post #23 of 46
*Off Topic* Cyber I lol'ed when i saw what you put as your graphics card
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post #24 of 46
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by AMD Dave View Post
So are you saying that by using coretemp or adding 15C to speedfan, that I'm actually over-reading the proper temperature.
ASUS actually had it right? PC Probe works?
Do you mind pointing me to this documentation? Everything I've read points to the opposite.

EDIT : it looks like coretemp officially supports Kentsfiel's http://www.thecoolest.zerobrains.com...owitworks.html
Core Temp reads the T-Junction and two other sensors. These are not IHS temps but Die temps. It is these three temps that BIOS sort of translates. The input from the sensors is run through an algorithm that BIOS display then displays.

Note that there are three temps for dual core C2D type processors. T-Junction and the two "core" sensors. None of these three are the temps that you will see listed by Intel RE the safe operating temp of their processors. These are useful temps...But about 10-20C higher than the IHS temps (which BIOS "guesses" from the other three sensor temps) and IHS temp is the temp you will see listed in the Intel Spec for a particular processor. Unless you have a nifty probe it is hard to know IHS temp...hence the use of an algorithm to aproximate it.

So at least RE C2D CPUs to be concerned by Core Temp readings when correlating to Intel Spec data is incorrect. That is my understanding.

Yes Core Temp provides useful data for checking how your cooling is working...but the only actual point of interest is comparative.. and the Delta T..which generally is about 15C from load to idle. If your Delta is greater than 15C then that might hint at problems and if you find one HS or another seems to cool both cores or one over another that is interesting.

The actual reported temps are nothing to do with the safe spec for operation.

That is what I gathered from my reading on Core Temp and C2D tempertature monitoring.

What have you found that says different?
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post #25 of 46
Quote:
Originally Posted by CyberDruid View Post
The actual reported temps are nothing to do with the safe spec for operation.

That is what I gathered from my reading on Core Temp and C2D tempertature monitoring.

What have you found that says different?
This is the way I see it.

I agree that the reported core temperatures from coretemp are not comparable to Intel's safe operating spec of 62C, as coretemp reads from the core diodes, and Intel is referring to the hypothetical center of the IHS (Tcase).

What I was trying to point out is that I believe the Tcase temperature reported by PC Probe and SpeedFan is inacurate because they use the wrong Tjunction value of 85C for a Kentsfield when in fact it should be 100C. This is my reasoning.

Since the temperatures are calculated by reading a value of a MSR and subtracting it from the reported value of the Tjunction stored in another register, if the wrong value is used for Tjunction the reported temperatures will be incorrect.

From the how it works for coretemp:
Quote:
This is how the program works:

Intel defines a certain Tjunction temperature for the processor. In the case of Yonah it is 85C° or 100C°. First of all the program reads from a Model Specific Register (or MSR), and detects the Tjunction temperature. A different MSR contains the temperature data, this data is represented as Delta in C° between current temperature and Tjunction.

So the actual temperature is calculated like this 'Core Temp = Tjunction - Delta'
Coretemp reports the Tjunction for a Kentsfield as 100C, and the Conroe's is 85C (I think). So when core0 reads 45C in coretemp, it is calculated by 'Core0 temp = 100C - 55C'

I believe that PC Probe and SpeedFan "assume" a Tjunction of 85C for the Kentsfield's, not the correct 100C. So using the example above where coretemp reports core0 at 45C, SpeedFan would calculate it as 'Core0 temp = 85C - 55C' outputting an improper value of 30C for core0.

The same also applies for the Tcase (CPU/IHS) temperature, which is the proper value to compare to Intel's "safe" spec of 62C. Since coretemp does not show this temperature programs like SpeedFan are needed.

In the following I'm assuming that CoreTemp displays the proper core temperatures and Tjunction for my computer. Sorry for all of the screenshots, but I think that they help. They are all taken under load on a hot and humid day, ambient temp around 26C.

This is what CoreTemp looks like:



Those core temperatures seem reasonable to me at 3.2GHz on a hot day.
This is what SpeedFan looks like under default configuration. I used 2 instances so I could show 2 configuration windows. I have uninstalled PC Probe, but I recall it reported the same temperature for Tcase (CPU).



Notice the reported core temperatures are much lower than those in coretemp. 15C lower (except core2, which is 16C lower, but this can be attributed to the difference in polling intervals between the two programs). Exactly the difference in Tjunction values between Kentsfield's (100C) and Conroe's (85C), this can't be a coincidence.

So I accounted for the 15C difference, and now the core temperatures are the same for both programs.



But now the reported Tcase temperature seems way too low; only one degree hotter than the NB, that doesn't seem right. Once again I added 15C to the reported temperature and things started to make more sense.



Now the core temperatures read by Speedfan match those in CoreTemp and the Tcase temperature seems to make sense being a few degrees cooler than the coldest (least hot) core.

This is what the chart in speedfan looks like after adding 15C to the Tcase temperature. Red is the Tcase temperature, and the others are the cores.



If SpeedFans reported Tcase temperature is off by 15C, then so is PC Probe's.
My guess is the both default to a Tjunction of 85C and therefore calculate temperatures 15C too low.

This is just my situation, yours my be different. There has always been a lot of confusion over the difference between Tcase and Tjunction, and which temperature one is supposed to keep below Intel's safe spec. Now that there are different Tjunction values for different classes of CPU it only adds to the difficulty. I'm not sure I've got it, but I think I have a decent grasp of how this works for kentsfield's, please correct me if I am wrong.

The way I see it Tjunction is a constant of either 85C or 100C and Tcase is the temperature one wants to keep below 62C. So I my case I'm at 49C and happy with that, 15C lower (34C) is just too low to be logical. The core temperatures can go above 62C as long as Tcase remains below 62C for kentsfield's.

Sorry for the long post, what do you think?
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post #26 of 46
Thread Starter 
I think you edified me/us on some salient points. This is my first experience with Kentsfeild--I was extrapolating (perhaps incorrectly) from my Conroe experiences.

Good work.

The bottom line is configure Speedfan manually? i.e. enter the value you believe to be correct.

You seem to be a little iffy on the value for Kentsfield. Is there a resource we can digest to try and determine this value?

Rep+
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post #27 of 46
This is a good topic regarding temps on the Conroes; it's also said in post #12 that it is relevant for the Kentsfields. I used this method and I got the exact same temps from Everest so this is what I use now to monitor my temps, here's a link to the topic, post #5 is the one explaining how to manually pull and figure out the temps: http://www.hardforum.com/showthread.php?t=1192840

EDIT: Post #15 also has some good info regarding the Quads, or just read the whole thing, it's worth it
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post #28 of 46
my CPU reads under ambient sometimes (When its not phase cooled )

could just be a bad sensor
    
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post #29 of 46
Thread Starter 
Great resource. I will check that in a bit.
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post #30 of 46
Thread Starter 
On my tech station with an identical LC loop the Q6600 was getting upwards of 53C after a three day run.

I was holding off a bit here before celebrating aas I thought perhaps the heatsoak or whtever might catch up to me...but nope.

The Q6600 s still perfectly happy at 3.2 something and 1.36 Vcore and has stabilized to 44C under 100% load.

The ambient here is a tad high today about 27-28C so that speaks well of the cooling set up.

This is basicallty the same loop I have tried on several builds: D-tek DB-1, D-Tek FuZion and PA 160 with a single fan.

SIngle fan. Yep a single San Ace at lowest speed attached to the PA160 with the provided shroud is really doing a great job--and much quieter than my wife's BT/FM121 set up in the next room--I can hear her rig over mine--and her's is about 20 feet away

I would reccomend anyone considering an LC set up to look closely at WaterClocker and think about using a PA rad...not only can you get performance from the loop at extremely low RPM you can also build a quiet LC set up that easily handes the hottest of processors.

The only concern I have is the passive cooling of the P5K mean using a couple of small fans on the chipset--which I cannot hear through the sound dampenend case. With a different board that has active cooling this would not even be an issue.

The case no doubt provides the extra cooling due to the rear mounted San Ace..so in a sense this is a push/pull config...

I was surpirsed (in a good way) to find that my CPU temps were about 5 to 8C lower in the case than on the tech station! Mobo temps are about 10C higher though...
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