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post #41 of 53
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fkyx View Post
C++ is the gateway drug (marijuana) of programming languages.
as a trilingual computer programmer I take that as offense. C++ is Heroin. Its medically damaging to quit. Once you learn C++; C++ owns you and commands you to make D_COM's and IE exploits to further its reputation as root; as god. (of course most IE exploits can be done in Javascript or even sometimes plain html/css but thats besides the point )

start out with marijuana (aka Python) go on to cocaine (Java) then start trippin out on acid (VB because its so easy people like to think they can do anything with it even though thats laughably impossible) and end up with heroin (C++)
    
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post #42 of 53
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Originally Posted by bruestle2 View Post
While we are at it lets do a "Hello World!" application in HTML.

Code:
Hello World!
Now wasn't that simple! I would not recommend HTML to him though...don't base your language off of how EASY it is to print something simple!

This isn't really fair to C++ and above, you are including headers that only appear ONCE (or items that CAN appear more than 1ce, but not often).
I'm currently studying C++ and I can see how it would GREATLY benefit to know this in a corporate invironment.

Visual Basic is nice because you can quickly create something that is pretty as well as useful. (C++ runs from a command prompt window...not exactly pretty)

Right now I do alot for my job with Visual Basic for Excel...(automating reports). It is quite handy and I see myself using it for my OWN applications in the future.
This is (so far) the best paying job I have had. I am 19, work full time and make $13.5/hour...not enough to live on, but GREAT for a freshman year internship.

Anyway...don't take any older languages like Fortran. It once was good, just like The titanic, but it is dying. You wouldn't want to put your money on the Titanic AFTER it hit the iceberg!

Its a valiant battle you fight, albeit a futile one. Trying to prove that C/C++ is more simplistic than Ruby or Perl is pretty much an argument that doesn't hold any water.

Sure, some scripting languages can pop out programs in like 7 lines, but who wants to always do things the easy way?

*looks around* *sniffles* right?
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post #43 of 53
Quote:
Originally Posted by Muttzcuttz View Post
Wow

Thanks for the overwhelming response folks. Plently for me to look into there I'll probably start off with something simple with lots of resource available (Javascript?) then after progress to a more challening language.

I'll think it through the next few days and have a word with some colleagues at work see what they suggest / have experience in. It may be an idea if I can learn a language that a colleague knows, and could get 1-1 help with it opposed to all internet based research.

THanking all kindly
seriously BELIEVE ME there are two paths:

1) choose a hard programming language (C++) and learn slowly and have tons of challenges and hair pulling days but end up more fluent in the art of programming and pick up other languages easily, needing nothing more than a syntax sheet (I learned C++ first, now Java and .NET is almost a joke because all i need to program those two is 3 days and syntax guides)

2) start easy and progress; seems to work for many people, learn programming concepts early then go on to bigger and better things; but imo you dont learn much in .NET if its your first language. ALTHOUGH javascript won't be bad as a SCRIPTING LANGUAGE, learning it as a PROGRAMMING LANGUAGE is a COMPLETE/TOTAL JOKE and many will agree with me. Too little to worry about; you learn almost ABSOLUTELY nothing and you are left with java script kits pasted in and edited the stuff in quotes to match what you want.....

JAVASCRIPT IS NOT A PROGRAMMING LANGUAGE! I CANNOT STRESS THIS ENOUGH!

If you want to go #2 (looks like that) thats cool, I would start with Java,

#1, C++
    
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post #44 of 53
Quote:
Originally Posted by kdbolt70 View Post
You're right, perl is easy and fun and can do it all, but it is for exactly who you said it is. Lazy people. I don't think its a great first language to learn because you'll then approach every other language with a "perl" mindset and be all ass-backwards. Starting with a more complicated, not entirely so elegant language such as C will give you a much more solid understanding of how computer programming works. Its why almost all colleges teach it as the core language, because it makes branching out to others easier. The language I am currently best with is C++, but I highly doubt I'll be using it much at all in my career. Nevertheless you can see the parallels in all types of programming, making it much easier to change gears to new things.


And +1 for Machine code! Might as well throw some assembly in there too! [/sarcasm]
I agree, Perl is not a good first language. It is a nice language though to write something fast and/or you need to handle with a lot of data.
After writing a ton of perl the last two months and no other language (but some ruby), and now going back to Java and C++, it stinks. I've gotten a little lazy.

The first language I started on 4 years ago was Pascal, then moved to a little C++ and then Java in College.
Sticking to a language with a bit more strict syntax I think is good for someone new to programming. (c/c++, java) just not (perl, ruby, python).
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post #45 of 53
Quote:
Originally Posted by kdbolt70 View Post
Its a valiant battle you fight, albeit a futile one. Trying to prove that C/C++ is more simplistic than Ruby or Perl is pretty much an argument that doesn't hold any water.

Sure, some scripting languages can pop out programs in like 7 lines, but who wants to always do things the easy way?

*looks around* *sniffles* right?
That is not at all what I am trying to say.
What I was going for was you need to take a programming language that actually has power!
In my (somewhat limited) experience, the simpler language is less powerful.
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post #46 of 53
Yes, I agree that perl can be easy to learn but mess you up later, but if you want an easy language, perl is the way to go. I started out with java semester 1 in college, and that just confused the heck out of me, semester 2, learning perl, I learned how to program, and not just that, but how to write useful programs that do useful stuff.
    
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post #47 of 53
Don't forget guys, not everyone wants to be a hardcore C/C++ programmer!

Also, how about C#? No-one's suggested that yet.
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post #48 of 53
Quote:
Originally Posted by dangerousHobo View Post
I agree, Perl is not a good first language. It is a nice language though to write something fast and/or you need to handle with a lot of data.
After writing a ton of perl the last two months and no other language (but some ruby), and now going back to Java and C++, it stinks. I've gotten a little lazy.

The first language I started on 4 years ago was Pascal, then moved to a little C++ and then Java in College.
Sticking to a language with a bit more strict syntax I think is good for someone new to programming. (c/c++, java) just not (perl, ruby, python).


Exactly. Starting off in a scripting language is going to get you all messed up and lazy when it comes time to write a difficult, object oriented program. I actually learned python to aid in the testing of my C++ program. I used it to run a parameterized command line thousands of times in a row and spit the results to different text file for analysis. I've recently picked up C# but am in no way an expert in it yet, but the transition from C++ to C# is so much nicer then if I had only known perl, or python, or ruby... etc. C# is a sexy powerful language, I wrote a whole server-side load testing application with it, something that would have probably taken me VB, C++, and JScript or some godawful combination of non .NET based languages.

I don't know about the rest of you, but I get all giddy excited when I can sucessfully execute some difficult high level program or application with just the push of some buttons. Its a unique power I've only truly understood after becoming a programmer.



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post #49 of 53
Quote:
Originally Posted by kdbolt70 View Post
Exactly. Starting off in a scripting language is going to get you all messed up and lazy when it comes time to write a difficult, object oriented program. I actually learned python to aid in the testing of my C++ program. I used it to run a parameterized command line thousands of times in a row and spit the results to different text file for analysis. I've recently picked up C# but am in no way an expert in it yet, but the transition from C++ to C# is so much nicer then if I had only known perl, or python, or ruby... etc. C# is a sexy powerful language, I wrote a whole server-side load testing application with it, something that would have probably taken me VB, C++, and JScript or some godawful combination of non .NET based languages.

I don't know about the rest of you, but I get all giddy excited when I can sucessfully execute some difficult high level program or application with just the push of some buttons. Its a unique power I've only truly understood after becoming a programmer.

I can't believe I have a girlfriend, I sound like I should be getting a swirly.
Any language has some aspects that can cause problems down the line. ColdFusion is a prime example of a web language that routinely creates horrid practices. Don't get me wrong I have a few friends that have started thier own company using CF and thier stuff is quite well done. Which simply proves that any language can be used poorly or elegantly, it is simply a matter of the person using it. I have been writing more and more complex code lately and have been utilizing JS a lot more. AJAX is a wonderful thing! My personal preference is C# it is all I use for work. I only suggested JS because it is so accesible. There are some OO aspects to JS and it can be quite powerful in the right hands. However, it can also lead to a bunch of spaghetti code pulled together from samples. Realistically speaking in order to be a succesful programmer you need to learn to think like a programmer, and therefore the language is arbitrary. Learn good problem-resolution skills and any language is just a reference book away.
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post #50 of 53
Quote:
Originally Posted by sniperscope View Post
Don't forget guys, not everyone wants to be a hardcore C/C++ programmer!

Also, how about C#? No-one's suggested that yet.
Heh, I happened to mention that in my previous post. I knew from the time I took my first programming class that I'd be in it for the long haul, so I tried to take the best path possible to allow myself to be adaptable to any and all types of computer science. If you are just Joe Businessman and happen to have the need for some particular program or programs, then learning the language that would best suite that is obviously your best bet. There's no need to go through the trials and tribulations of learning C, then C++, then Java, Then VB, then Perl... etc just to learn how to write some scripts.


As for C#, it is very powerful, like I mentioned before. .NET opens the doors to a lot of things, and it may not be the best language to learn from the onset. I was able to write some pretty indepth C# code after about a day of reading up on "C# for C++ programmers". Had I tried to do C# out of the gate, I'd be all screwy. I guess I can't say what it'd be like to learn C# as a first language, and really neither can any of the other programmers on here, because we've all seen other languages before it. We may have little knowledge of how to write it, but have programming eyes looking at it and our learning process is different then a noob. *shrugs* maybe thats just me though. I don't want to speak for hobo or sreenath.

Quote:
Any language has some aspects that can cause problems down the line. ColdFusion is a prime example of a web language that routinely creates horrid practices. Don't get me wrong I have a few friends that have started thier own company using CF and thier stuff is quite well done. Which simply proves that any language can be used poorly or elegantly, it is simply a matter of the person using it. I have been writing more and more complex code lately and have been utilizing JS a lot more. AJAX is a wonderful thing! My personal preference is C# it is all I use for work. I only suggested JS because it is so accesible. There are some OO aspects to JS and it can be quite powerful in the right hands. However, it can also lead to a bunch of spaghetti code pulled together from samples. Realistically speaking in order to be a succesful programmer you need to learn to think like a programmer, and therefore the language is arbitrary. Learn good problem-resolution skills and any language is just a reference book away.
Very well put! I agree. When looking at programming from a top-level perspective, the language used is nearly irrelevent. Something I let on to earlier was "programming eyes". Its just how you learn to look at a problem and seeing a programed way to solve it. And you're right, any language can do what it's intended to do very well, or it can be butchered and very sloppy. One of the things I brought up with my current employer during my first interview was this: I may not know the most languages or have the fastest running shortest-path algorithm, but I have a programming mind. When I see a list of requirements, I can see how to tackle them the best way possible. Like you said, any language can be pounded out with a reference book, as long as you know what your doing in the first place.
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