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post #8811 of 19729
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aaron_Henderson View Post
Just so people are aware though, many PSU are actually designed to intake warm air from the case and exhaust out the back. Not like that makes what scottsee is saying valid or anything, but once upon a time most PSU's functioned the way he believes they all should.
No, many cases are designed to use the PSU fan as a case fan to extract heat from VRM's, CPU, RAM etc. PSU manufacturers had no choice but to make their fans and PSU cooling better to accommodate this. Nowadays, case manufacturers are deciding to put fans on the top in place of the PSU fan to extract heat from that area, simultaneously improving the cooling of the CPU/VRM area and the PSU at the bottom.

That is all. Can we please get off this topic now?
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post #8812 of 19729
Quote:
Originally Posted by T3h_Ch33z_Muncha View Post
No, many cases are designed to use the PSU fan as a case fan to extract heat from VRM's, CPU, RAM etc. PSU manufacturers had no choice but to make their fans and PSU cooling better to accommodate this. Nowadays, case manufacturers are deciding to put fans on the top in place of the PSU fan to extract heat from that area, simultaneously improving the cooling of the CPU/VRM area and the PSU at the bottom.

That is all. Can we please get off this topic now?
That's kind of fail in the engineering department if PSU's from back in the day didn't take the general mounting position into account when designing them. I'll get off the topic though.
post #8813 of 19729
Quote:
Originally Posted by T3h_Ch33z_Muncha View Post
...

That is all. Can we please get off this topic now?
+1
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post #8814 of 19729
So...Yagit, do something about that LCD cable would ya!
post #8815 of 19729
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aaron_Henderson View Post
So...Yagit, do something about that LCD cable would ya!
It's actually organize from the backplate it has it's own hole.. I'll figure a way to make it clean looking..
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post #8816 of 19729
Quote:
Originally Posted by YaGitâ„¢ View Post
It's actually organize from the backplate it has it's own hole.. I'll figure a way to make it clean looking..
I was half kidding actually. I've yet to route the power cable for my 5" LCD properly yet, and your cable routing murders mine. Badly. I just have, should I say, high expectations for your case.
post #8817 of 19729
But when Scott comes back, we will be right back on this topic. So it must run its course.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aaron_Henderson View Post
That's kind of fail in the engineering department if PSU's from back in the day didn't take the general mounting position into account when designing them. I'll get off the topic though.
But like I said before, it didn't matter as much back then because our systems were not generating as much heat. But as technology evolved, our systems generated more and more heat. It has gotten to the point today where mounting the PSU at the top has the potential of making it so hot that it either kills it, or dramatically reduces its efficiency and lifespan. That's why we're seeing bottom-mounting becoming so common. I imagine that we are looking at a future where the bottom is the only place PSUs are mounted, just like how it used to be the top! Or, we will see more and more compartmentalized systems where the PSU is in a compartment all by itself where it draws in cool air from underneath and blows it out the rear and is also accompanied by a cooling fan that is next to the PSU pulling in air from underneath to further aid the PSU in keeping cool (much like the CM 690, except having that lower area sealed off).

So yes, even back "in the beginning", so to speak, the fan in the PSU had only one purpose: to cool the PSU. But since heat wasn't that much of an issue back then, lots of pre-built systems simply took advantage of how the fan was sucking in air and blowing it out the back just to have SOME kind of airflow for the passive cooling solutions on the components, such as the CPU.

But today, it's a much different story. We have systems that generate massive amounts of heat thereby making top-mounted PSUs quickly becoming a thing of the past. After all, who wants a PSU sitting at the top of the case drawing in all that warm air thereby making their PSU warmer? It's even dumber to be purposely using the PSU's cooling fan to help remove warm air out of the case, or to help improve airflow - especially in a case like the CM 690.

But you see, Scott seems to think that because the PSU fan was always forced to draw in the warmer interior air at the top and push it out the back, and that because some manufacturers actually just decided to use that fan and nothing in addition to it, well he seems to think that this is the purpose of the PSU's fan. But the PSU's fan has one purpose, and it always has had one purpose: to dissipate the heat inside the PSU order to prevent heat build-up inside the PSU. Or, in other words, the PSU fan's sole purpose is to cool the PSU. They didn't add a fan to the PSU in order to suck warm air out of the case. But again, it just so happens that having the PSU at the top is quickly becoming a thing of the past due to all of the heat our systems are making, especially with multiple high-end graphics cards.

So Scott: I'm not disagreeing with the fact that they decided to make it easy back then and just use the PSU's cooling fan to suck warm air out of the case. After all, it wasn't a big deal back then and it so it was good enough. Hell, I went through 3 pre-built systems, and guess what: all 3 forced the PSU's fan to do double-duty: cool itself and also remove the warm air out of the case, if any (or to be more accurate: to create at least some kind of airflow). But today, we have case fans, CPU heatsink fans, GPU fans, and even fans strictly placed in the chassis just for hard drives. We have fans running all over the place. So now things have changed, but the Standard ATX Form Factor is still the same.
Edited by TwoCables - 10/26/09 at 3:50am
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post #8818 of 19729
Quote:
Originally Posted by TwoCables View Post
But when Scott comes back, we will be right back on this topic. So it must run its course.

But like I said before, it didn't matter as much back then because our systems were not generating as much heat. But as technology evolved, our systems generated more and more heat. It has gotten to the point today where mounting the PSU at the top has the potential of making it so hot that it either kills it, or dramatically reduces its efficiency and lifespan. That's why we're seeing bottom-mounting becoming so common. I imagine that we are looking at a future where the bottom is the only place PSUs are mounted, just like how it used to be the top! Or, we will see more and more compartmentalized systems where the PSU is in a compartment all by itself where it draws in cool air from underneath and blows it out the rear and is also accompanied by a cooling fan that is next to the PSU pulling in air from underneath to further aid the PSU in keeping cool (much like the CM 690, except having that lower area sealed off).

So yes, even back "in the beginning", so to speak, the fan in the PSU had only one purpose: to cool the PSU. But since heat wasn't that much of an issue back then, lots of pre-built systems simply took advantage of how the fan was sucking in air and blowing it out the back just to have SOME kind of airflow for the passive cooling solutions on the components, such as the CPU.

But today, it's a much different story. We have systems that generate massive amounts of heat thereby making top-mounted PSUs quickly becoming a thing of the past. After all, who wants a PSU sitting at the top of the case drawing in all that warm air thereby making their PSU warmer? It's even dumber to be purposely using the PSU's cooling fan to help remove warm air out of the case, or to help improve airflow - especially in a case like the CM 690.

But you see, Scott seems to think that because the PSU fan was always forced to draw in the warmer interior air at the top and push it out the back, and that because some manufacturers actually just decided to use that fan and nothing in addition to it, well he seems to think that this is the purpose of the PSU's fan. But the PSU's fan has one purpose, and it always has had one purpose: to dissipate the heat inside the PSU order to prevent heat build-up inside the PSU. Or, in other words, the PSU fan's sole purpose is to cool the PSU. They didn't add a fan to the PSU in order to suck warm air out of the case. But again, it just so happens that having the PSU at the top is quickly becoming a thing of the past due to all of the heat our systems are making, especially with multiple high-end graphics cards.

So Scott: I'm not disagreeing with the fact that they decided to make it easy back then and just use the PSU's cooling fan to suck warm air out of the case. After all, it wasn't a big deal back then and it so it was good enough. Hell, I went through 3 pre-built systems, and guess what: all 3 forced the PSU's fan to do double-duty: cool itself and also remove the warm air out of the case, if any (or to be more accurate: to create at least some kind of airflow). But today, we have case fans, CPU heatsink fans, GPU fans, and even fans strictly placed in the chassis just for hard drives. We have fans running all over the place. So now things have changed, but the Standard ATX Form Factor is still the same.
All I meant was that the average pc case still has a top mounted PSU, and PSU manufacturs need to take that into account when designing the PSU's. If the PSU's failed/overheated in every case with a top mount which forces the PSU to intake warm case air, there would be some large issues going on right now in the PSU RMA departments. They cannot just overlook that. The PSU's pretty much have to be designed to be able to cope with warmer than ambient intake air, because that is what they will be dealing with once put to use by the average consumer.
post #8819 of 19729
The ATX form factor has nothing to do with it, apart from possibly the mounting holes for the PSU. I don't know why that was even mentioned.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aaron_Henderson View Post
That's kind of fail in the engineering department if PSU's from back in the day didn't take the general mounting position into account when designing them. I'll get off the topic though.
I wasn't going to respond to this, but since twopenises has decided to continue the discussion, i will.

Like i said, PSU manufacturers did take the mounting position and the accompanying heat into account, because they were forced to by case manufacturers. PC P&C, as an example, has basically shot itself in the foot by admonishing 120mm bottom fans on their PSU's, instead sticking with the 80mm rear fan. The reason there originally was only a small 80mm fan at the back was because PSU's didn't have to deal with system heat. Other manufacturers jumped onto the 120, and eventually 140mm fan bandwagon in an effort to preserve efficiency and reduce noise with the increased levels of system heat. Unfortunately PC P&C is too pig headed to go back on their word and use larger fans, but that's getting a bit off the point now. /rambling


edit:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aaron_Henderson View Post
All I meant was that the average pc case still has a top mounted PSU, and PSU manufacturs need to take that into account when designing the PSU's. If the PSU's failed/overheated in every case with a top mount which forces the PSU to intake warm case air, there would be some large issues going on right now in the PSU RMA departments. They cannot just overlook that. The PSU's pretty much have to be designed to be able to cope with warmer than ambient intake air, because that is what they will be dealing with once put to use by the average consumer.
Indeed, and that's why PSU's can change fan speeds to deal with different levels of heat. At the top, the PSU should still retain its efficiency, but the fan will be far louder, depending on load and system heat. At the bottom, the PSU is at its peak in terms of efficiency and noise reduction.
Edited by T3h_Ch33z_Muncha - 10/26/09 at 3:59am
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post #8820 of 19729
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aaron_Henderson View Post
All I meant was that the average pc case still has a top mounted PSU, and PSU manufacturs need to take that into account when designing the PSU's. If the PSU's failed/overheated in every case with a top mount which forces the PSU to intake warm case air, there would be some large issues going on right now in the PSU RMA departments. They cannot just overlook that. The PSU's pretty much have to be designed to be able to cope with warmer than ambient intake air, because that is what they will be dealing with once put to use by the average consumer.
But we aren't average consumers. There's an ever-increasing market for enthusiasts, and in this market we are seeing bottom-mounting becoming more and more common. I think we will see a future where no enthusiast would build a computer with a top-mounted PSU, unless it's one where heat isn't a concern.

Fortunately, case cooling today is so good that a top-mounted PSU isn't all that bad anyway. And some people prefer the look of having the PSU at the top since that's the way it used to be for every single tower in existence.

I guess one of the things I am saying is that I realize that having the PSU at the top isn't a big deal at all. But some systems generate way too much heat, so it means that it's a much better idea to put the PSU on the bottom.

Take my rig for example: when I'm playing Crysis, I notice that my PSU feels really warm, almost hot. So if it were in a case where the PSU is mounted at the top, then it would definitely get warmer because it's both in the warmer part of the case, and also because the PSU's fan is trying to cool the PSU with the warmer air that is inside the case. This reduces the efficiency of the PSU, and it possibly reduces its lifespan. It also increases the chances of a shutdown due to being too hot.

But I guess since console gaming seems to be taking over and probably replacing PC gaming, we may be looking at quite a different future than we would otherwise like.
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It's a computer!
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250 GB Samsung 840 EVO (C:\) 250 GB Samsung 840 EVO (D:\) 150 GB WD VelociRaptor Samsung SH-S243N 24x DVD Burner 
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Filco Majestouch 104-key Cherry MX Blues w/NKRO Corsair HX650 (Bronze, ordered on 12-12-2009) CM 690 Intellimouse Optical (1.1A) 1000Hz polling rate 
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