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[Slashdot]Competitors Ally With Comcast - Page 2

post #11 of 24
Verizon can go die for all I care.
Then again I can start charging all my friends and relatives that call me for help setting up their home network which apparently verizon doesnt give directions for.
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post #12 of 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by gex80 View Post
http://electronics.howstuffworks.com/dsl4.htm
"Although cable and DSL speeds are about the same, the one disadvantage with cable is bandwidth -- connection speeds can slow down if too many people are using a cable service at the same time."


http://www.logical.net/broadband/dsl/dslvscable.asp
"DSL is a dedicated connection between your computer and the Telcos Central office. With DSL, there is no sharing bandwidth with your neighborhood. Cable modems offer service over a shared cable."
The bandwidth saturation that p2p causes will not affect other customers' speeds, but does put a large amount of costly stress on the ISP's network. It doesn't affect other users, but it does affect verizon.
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post #13 of 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by gex80 View Post
http://electronics.howstuffworks.com/dsl4.htm
"Although cable and DSL speeds are about the same, the one disadvantage with cable is bandwidth -- connection speeds can slow down if too many people are using a cable service at the same time."


http://www.logical.net/broadband/dsl/dslvscable.asp
"DSL is a dedicated connection between your computer and the Telcos Central office. With DSL, there is no sharing bandwidth with your neighborhood. Cable modems offer service over a shared cable."
How about quoting unbiased sources next time like I did. A DSL provider and howstuffworks are not exactly who I'd turn to for reliable reputable information. But then again like I said I've worked for Qwest, Comcast, and a Large Fiber provider, and have a very thorough knowledge of how each works, and to tell you the truth, they all work the same only difference is the lines they use to get to you.
post #14 of 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by JeremyFr View Post
So I guess for those that have fleed to FIOS you'll be seeing the fruits of this venture as well. There's an old saying that hold so true in this whole situation. The needs of the many (normal broadband users) far outweigh the needs of the few (P2P users and those that "hog" bandwidth)
I wish you would quit antagonizing everyone that opposes this. The clowns that run these companies oversold their available bandwidth, and now they have to face the consequences of their sheer stupidity. If you sell a connection with x amount of bandwidth, and you advertise it as unlimited access, then it better well be unlimited access. So unless there is an actual disclaimer in the contract with a fixed amount of data usage, they are advertising falsely and should be facing consequences. Just because they can't manage their infrastructure with a growing amount of usage is no excuse.

In fact, telecom companies have so poorly managed the US network infrastructure, it is going to cost in excess of $100 billion to fix it, with much of that coming from taxpayer money. So I'm sorry that some "bandwidth hog" ruined your email or blogging experience, but some of us actually like to use our connections. I personally have no problem with someone making full use of their internet connection. People pay a fixed amount per month for satellite or cable TV, yet should they be limited to how much (health arguments aside) they can watch? Should we label them "TV hogs"?

As for DSLAM, most DSL providers actually make sure their is enough bandwidth on the primary line before they grossly oversell the available bandwidth like cable companies seem to do. I notice a lot less fluctuation of speed on a DSL line than on a cable connection.
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post #15 of 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by HrnyGoat View Post
I wish you would quit antagonizing everyone that opposes this. The clowns that run these companies oversold their available bandwidth, and now they have to face the consequences of their sheer stupidity. If you sell a connection with x amount of bandwidth, and you advertise it as unlimited access, then it better well be unlimited access. So unless there is an actual disclaimer in the contract with a fixed amount of data usage, they are advertising falsely and should be facing consequences. Just because they can't manage their infrastructure with a growing amount of usage is no excuse.

In fact, telecom companies have so poorly managed the US network infrastructure, it is going to cost in excess of $100 billion to fix it, with much of that coming from taxpayer money. So I'm sorry that some "bandwidth hog" ruined your email or blogging experience, but some of us actually like to use our connections. I personally have no problem with someone making full use of their internet connection. People pay a fixed amount per month for satellite or cable TV, yet should they be limited to how much (health arguments aside) they can watch? Should we label them "TV hogs"?

As for DSLAM, most DSL providers actually make sure their is enough bandwidth on the primary line before they grossly oversell the available bandwidth like cable companies seem to do. I notice a lot less fluctuation of speed on a DSL line than on a cable connection.
The problem is not actually the amount of bandwidth used as such. Ars technica explains it well

Quote:
These networks were built to suck data from the center of the 'Net to the edges. P2P inverts that model, pulling data directly from other users along the edge of the network. This creates a problem for Comcast, which asserts that it applies no blocking, delaying, or throttling to downloads, no matter how many are proceeding simultaneously on a local node.
Via Ars Technica

It isn't as clear cut as "we're selling an xx Mbps connection but aren't able to provide the bandwidth." P2P changes the landscape radically, and the effect is that a small amount of users can noticeably bog down the network. It's not that they are overselling bandwidth, the nature of P2P is such that it uses every single bit of available bandwidth, and does it in a way that plays to the networks weakness rather than its strength. If comcast doubled the available bandwidth, the P2P apps would just use that and the bandwidth would be saturated all the same.

Throwing bandwidth at the problem will not help, because the apps that are creating that problem would just use the extra bandwidth also. Comcast is going about this the wrong way, and I do not support their methods, but the issue is most definitely not black and white.

And tv usage is a horrible analogy for internet usage
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post #16 of 24
P2P can only use as much bandwidth as each user has. So therefore it would not matter if they were filesharing, running a server, watching movies online, downloading files, etc. Anything that saturates a user's connection will have the same effect as P2P.
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post #17 of 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by HrnyGoat View Post
P2P can only use as much bandwidth as each user has. So therefore it would not matter if they were filesharing, running a server, watching movies online, downloading files, etc. Anything that saturates a user's connection will have the same effect as P2P.
It's not all about the downloads

Quote:
But Comcast doesn't delay all P2P uploads, either. According to its filing, network management only kicks in "when P2P unidirectional upload sessions (i.e., sessions where a computer is only uploading and not simultaneously uploading and downloading) reach a predetermined congestion threshold in a particular neighborhood." The goal here is to stop unattended machines from using significant upload bandwidth, though Comcast says that the "delay" is removed once the "number of active uploading sessions drops below that threshold."
Via Ars Technica

I seriously suggest you read that article if you haven't. Before reading it I was dead set against Comcast. After seeing it from their side (which is difficult because the ISP's rarely speak but the sensationalists on the interwebz are very vocal) I see how murky the issue is.

And you can't run a server from a consumer connection (with most ISP's)
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post #18 of 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by HrnyGoat View Post
P2P can only use as much bandwidth as each user has. So therefore it would not matter if they were filesharing, running a server, watching movies online, downloading files, etc. Anything that saturates a user's connection will have the same effect as P2P.
And as has been pointed out time and time again, its not about the downloaders but the uploaders. Comcast could care less how much you download, they do care as has been shown about how much is being pulled back through the line in uploads.
post #19 of 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by rabidgnome229 View Post
The problem is not actually the amount of bandwidth used as such. Ars technica explains it well


Via Ars Technica

It isn't as clear cut as "we're selling an xx Mbps connection but aren't able to provide the bandwidth." P2P changes the landscape radically, and the effect is that a small amount of users can noticeably bog down the network. It's not that they are overselling bandwidth, the nature of P2P is such that it uses every single bit of available bandwidth, and does it in a way that plays to the networks weakness rather than its strength. If comcast doubled the available bandwidth, the P2P apps would just use that and the bandwidth would be saturated all the same.

Throwing bandwidth at the problem will not help, because the apps that are creating that problem would just use the extra bandwidth also. Comcast is going about this the wrong way, and I do not support their methods, but the issue is most definitely not black and white.

And tv usage is a horrible analogy for internet usage
High-def TV requires a lot more bandwidth and i heard TV companies need to expand if they want to go more than 30% HD..

Quote:
Originally Posted by HrnyGoat View Post
P2P can only use as much bandwidth as each user has. So therefore it would not matter if they were filesharing, running a server, watching movies online, downloading files, etc. Anything that saturates a user's connection will have the same effect as P2P.

I completely agree with your stance hrnygoat. If i pay for say 2mbs internet i sure as hell should be able to use that 2mbs. Browsing the internet and playing CoD4 online doesnt use 2mbs but if i want to download a file why shouldnt i be able to use the 2mbs downstream i pay for? If it affects other people than you fix it before selling your service, dont weasel people out of their money because your network isnt up to par.
    
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post #20 of 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by rabidgnome229 View Post
It's not all about the downloads


Via Ars Technica

I seriously suggest you read that article if you haven't. Before reading it I was dead set against Comcast. After seeing it from their side (which is difficult because the ISP's rarely speak but the sensationalists on the interwebz are very vocal) I see how murky the issue is.

And you can't run a server from a consumer connection (with most ISP's)
That is a good article to read.

I've said it before: If Comcast wants to throttle down on the many P2Pers, they'd be doing me a favor.
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