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[TPU] OCZ Cryo-Z Phase Change Cooler Tested - Page 6

post #51 of 63
Quote:
Originally Posted by relic2279 View Post

Phase change cooling will be useless soon anyways as the chips get smaller and run at lower and lower temps. Negative side effects include less voltage tolerance due to die size, electron mitigation etc... But the smaller they make the chip, the less heat becomes the issue.
we are already seeing this with the 45nm penryns and it will only get worse as the sizes decrease
post #52 of 63
Not sure where Paul Dovi gets his inside info on the OCZ cooler: noisy and poor build quality. I doubt it.

The reason OCZ has not released this unit is to make it better and better: they team working on this is fanatacil about getting this product right. OCZ has not been associated with any crap that I know of. I got my info from a reliable source BTW that knows someone working on the product.

Anyway I think the casing looks fantastic. I think that shipping may kill some of the units though...and that must be a concern.

Chips may be running cooler, but I don't see that as making phase obsolete. Once you get past -70C or so (correct if wrong) you start getting some superconductivity at play...allowing for lower volts per frequency attained. Not all phase units can do this. Simply chilling to -30 or so (which most Single Stage accomplish) is going to allow for more headroom...but no superconductivity.

There is also the issue of pinpoint thermal variations in the CPU. Sure overall 45nm runs cool, but there are certain microscopic areas that get incredibly hot...without some sort of magical nanocooling I can't see how to counter that... so freezing down everything is our current solution.

The point being that even though the whole chip may read at -60C or w/e there will still be micro-areas that are quite warm...
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post #53 of 63
Which leads to one thing..

Less stable overclocks. And alot of burnt out CPU's...

We as overclockers must find away around this, or through this. I haven't heard much on the topic yet, but as more and more people get these chips, I hope innovation in our community prevails.

~r
post #54 of 63
I don't know how you draw the conclusion that 45nm are giving less stable OCs?

That goes counter to everything experience has shown me.

RE building a phase for 45nm: that's simply a matter of balancing and tuning the unit. People are doing that with success right now. Hence WR overclocks on the latest chips.
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post #55 of 63
Quote:
Originally Posted by relic2279 View Post

As far as phase change cooling goes, most of you have it all wrong. Except for the poster above. Phase change cooling will be useless soon anyways as the chips get smaller and run at lower and lower temps. Negative side effects include less voltage tolerance due to die size, electron mitigation etc... But the smaller they make the chip, the less heat becomes the issue.

I doubt it, not soon. Just buy some Phase from NoL!
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post #56 of 63
Quote:
Originally Posted by CyberDruid View Post
The reason OCZ has not released this unit is to make it better and better: they team working on this is fanatacil about getting this product right. OCZ has not been associated with any crap that I know of. I got my info from a reliable source BTW that knows someone working on the product.
It may be a fantastic product, but their markup is insane. I know this because as you are in the business for PC enthusiasts, I was in the HVAC business. $500 is unacceptable in my eyes. They are building these for probably less then $120. At least, at a quick glance at johnstone supply and wolfbrothers, suggests this.

Quote:
Chips may be running cooler, but I don't see that as making phase obsolete. Once you get past -70C or so (correct if wrong) you start getting some superconductivity at play...
Isn't that directly connected with electron divergence and electron mitigation? Both are bad for CPU's... At least, the kind of CPU's we use. Silicon based wafers...

Quote:
allowing for lower volts per frequency attained. Not all phase units can do this. Simply chilling to -30 or so (which most Single Stage accomplish) is going to allow for more headroom...but no superconductivity.
I like your optimism. We definately need it.

At first it will, but once they drop below 25nm chips, phase change cooling will be obsolete because voltage tolerance will be too sensitive due to the superconductivity points you made, and the points I made.

Yeah, you will still be able to overclock your chip to a google Ghz with some Ln^2 on a suicide run, but as far as running a chip on a high overclock 24/7 with phase change or even water cooling below 25nm won't happen. The voltage will kill the chip before temps even begin to do any damage.

Quote:
but there are certain microscopic areas that get incredibly hot...without some sort of magical nanocooling I can't see how to counter that... so freezing down everything is our current solution.
The point being that even though the whole chip may read at -60C or w/e there will still be micro-areas that are quite warm...
Once we drop below 30nm-25nm chips, micro-heating of CPU areas won't be a problem. It just won't get hot enough to cause damage because the voltage will kill the chip long before heat does any damage.

I hope I haven't offended you, as you are a respected member of this forum. Just felt like providing some info in an area of knowledge that I have, or rather contribute where I can, when I can. Please take no offense.
-----------
EDIT because of other posters edits:
----------
Quote:
Originally Posted by CyberDruid View Post
I don't know how you draw the conclusion that 45nm are giving less stable OCs?
RE building a phase for 45nm: that's simply a matter of balancing and tuning the unit. People are doing that with success right now. Hence WR overclocks on the latest chips.
It's not that they are less stable now. I was referring to chips that become smaller then 45nm. ( I was referring to Bitemarks and bloodstains post) I did say they (45nm chips) were more voltage sensitive. People are frying their wolfdales constantly. This has been a big deal, and what people have been complaining about since they were released. If they are more stable at higher voltages, please correct me if I am wrong and point me in the correct direction/forum/webpage, but from what I've seen and heard over the last couple months, reviews on newegg and other forums, it's definately voltage sensitive. Which makes sense all things considered.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Criswell View Post
I doubt it, not soon. Just buy some Phase from NoL!
Ignorance is bliss.. Like i said before.. Wikipedia or something. Not trying to be harsh, but if your posting on an overclockers forum, most of this is common sense.
Phase change for $500? I can buy an AC unit for central air for my home an additional $300 more...
The smaller the die size, the less tolerance to voltage. This is also common knowledge. Heat was a factor for 90nm chips and larger, but once the hit 65nm, it became even. Now as they become smaller, less heat is generated. A lot less heat. Due to the low wattage required.
So raising voltage will fry your chip almost 3 times as quick on a chip in th 30-38nm range, then 65nm, and it increases exponentially as the die sizes get smaller.


~R
post #57 of 63
Looking at it again, I'm guessing if OCZ do sell these phase change units off at $300 each, they'll be looking at a 80% return rate or so.

The quality of the casing is extremely poor - I'm guessing they'll just apologise and point at the low price. Having the casing replaced on every unit will just add a lot more money to the RRP, unless they can have the contractors do it for free...

Even so, my guess is a huge number people will see this, go "Oh, sweet, a cheap phase change, WOOT!" and buy it. They'll put it on a heavily overclocked Q6600, and seeing as the temperatures are still going to be sub-zero they won't worry. The compressor will burn out, and they'll return it, if OCZ haven't realised the problem and sold the unit without a warranty.

Of course, OCZ could say it's designed for 45nm chips only, but if you stick any sort of quad under it and start upping the voltage drastically you'll either have a very dead chip ("-10C, let's put it up to 1.7V!") or a very dead compressor - the Q9650, for example, is 3ghz and has a TDP of 95W, so it won't be hard at all to break that 120W barrier by a long way.

The reason I can see it taking so long is OCZ have realised the problems, and are trying desperately to work how the hell they are going to sell all these units which are going to die so quickly with only reasonably heavy load.
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post #58 of 63
Anywho, I appreciate the discussion and again, I hope I didn't offend anyone. Considering I'm new to this forum, I know I don't have the reputation most of you old timers have, but that doesn't mean I don't have anything to contribute. Please take no offense. I enjoy a good discussion/debate and respect those who can do it in a mature manor which is hard to find these days...

I do plan on building a phase change unit myself for my E6400 next week, and will be posting it in the proper forum if anyone wants to follow along. I am a certified HVAC contractor and am also certified via EPA Tech type 1 & 3 and can provide credentials upon request if needed. I do admit I haven't worked HVAC in almost 8 years though. But what the heck, I don't have anything better to do then provide my motherboard with a constant source of condensation..

EDIT: Considering the blizzard we have here in NE ohio, my new phase change unit will be free. I'm going to stick my computer in a snow drift outside my window and what the heck, my xbox 360 too since it's been acting up... If anyone else lives in NE ohio, god save you if you need to drive anywhere... I tried to go to mcdonalds and when I got there, they were close due to weather...
Mcdonalds close due to weather? what the ** is the world coming too...

~R
post #59 of 63
HOLY CRAP SUB $500!!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChielScape View Post
max load: 120W.
enjoy your burning quadcore.
oh, thats why

I doubt its badly built, OCZ is pretty good
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post #60 of 63
Dude, go back to the first post, actually READ the review (or just look at the pictures), and post again.

They subcontracted it out, and build quality is APPALLING.
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