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[TPU] BenQ Launches World’s Slimmest 24-Inch Widescreen LCD Monitor - Page 3

post #21 of 34
Quote:
Originally Posted by stargate125645 View Post
CRTs are no better than LCDs. Learn to control your framerate and you will have no issues.
Yet another person that doesn't understand.

The fact that I can render 300+fps (in UT2004) means nothing. Check your on-screen-display on the monitor and see what the input is... You are running 60hz if you are running the native resolution (on your sigged monitor) - simple as that.

... and I'd still like to know what you mean by 'controlling my framerate'.

To Licht: I personally wouldn't need over 60hz in any game if it wasn't for the Quake and UT series... but even 75hz isn't enough for those ones.
    
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post #22 of 34
Quote:
Originally Posted by i_hax View Post
Yet another person that doesn't understand.

The fact that I can render 300+fps (in UT2004) means nothing. Check your on-screen-display on the monitor and see what the input is... You are running 60hz if you are running the native resolution (on your sigged monitor) - simple as that.

... and I'd still like to know what you mean by 'controlling my framerate'.

To Licht: I personally wouldn't need over 60hz in any game if it wasn't for the Quake and UT series... but even 75hz isn't enough for those ones.
Have you read his FAQ? He's one of the view here who does understand. What he means with controlling the FPS is matching the FPS to the real response time. If you have a slower response time, lower your FPS to avoid problems.
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post #23 of 34
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kluit View Post
Have you read his FAQ? He's one of the view here who does understand. What he means with controlling the FPS is matching the FPS to the real response time. If you have a slower response time, lower your FPS to avoid problems.
Did you read my post? Unfortunately his FAQ makes little sense, because the monitor is still being fed 60hz. The response time DOES NOT AFFECT THIS AT ALL. Matching your framerate to your response time DOES NOT AFFECT THIS AT ALL.

I can nullify his entire FAQ by simply switching between (at 1400x900) 75hz and 60hz and noticing a large difference.

EDIT: I take back "makes little sense" and "nullify". His FAQ is completely correct, it just doesn't really apply to this situation.


IMO for 99% of people this makes no difference. However, ask anyone who plays competitive UT what they think of an LCD... most still run 800x600 at 100+hz on a CRT (mine died).
    
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post #24 of 34
Quote:
Originally Posted by i_hax View Post
Yet another person that doesn't understand.

The fact that I can render 300+fps (in UT2004) means nothing. Check your on-screen-display on the monitor and see what the input is... You are running 60hz if you are running the native resolution (on your sigged monitor) - simple as that.

... and I'd still like to know what you mean by 'controlling my framerate'.

To Licht: I personally wouldn't need over 60hz in any game if it wasn't for the Quake and UT series... but even 75hz isn't enough for those ones.
You are going on about nothing, trying to make yourself sound important and informed. For starters, you ought to avoid putting words in people's mouths. For example, I never said I wasn't running 60Hz.

It's quite rich for you to claim I don't know what's going on, yet you apparently can't even comprehend the relationship between response time and refresh rate for an LCD monitor.

You remind me of the betta. When threatened or to defend territory, they will spread out their gills in order to look bigger and intimidating. You are doing the same thing right now, except you targeted the wrong person with your display.

Quote:
Originally Posted by i_hax View Post
Did you read my post? Unfortunately his FAQ makes little sense, because the monitor is still being fed 60hz. The response time DOES NOT AFFECT THIS AT ALL. Matching your framerate to your response time DOES NOT AFFECT THIS AT ALL.

I can nullify his entire FAQ by simply switching between (at 1400x900) 75hz and 60hz and noticing a large difference.

EDIT: I take back "makes little sense" and "nullify". His FAQ is completely correct, it just doesn't really apply to this situation.


IMO for 99% of people this makes no difference. However, ask anyone who plays competitive UT what they think of an LCD... most still run 800x600 at 100+hz on a CRT (mine died).
LOL...

Getting a framerate higher than your refresh rate is useless, no matter what type of monitor you have. And the few extra milliseconds gained by improving the refresh rate to over 100Hz is so ridiculously minuscule that the chances it will make a difference in your reaction times is negligible and I encourage you to prove otherwise.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kluit View Post
Have you read his FAQ? He's one of the view here who does understand. What he means with controlling the FPS is matching the FPS to the real response time. If you have a slower response time, lower your FPS to avoid problems.
Just for clarity, it isn't technically about matching the response time, but making sure the monitor has enough time to display each frame. I am honored that you've read my FAQ, though!
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post #25 of 34
Quote:
Originally Posted by stargate125645 View Post
Getting a framerate higher than your refresh rate is useless, no matter what type of monitor you have. And the few extra milliseconds gained by improving the refresh rate to over 100Hz is so ridiculously minuscule that the chances it will make a difference in your reaction times is negligible and I encourage you to prove otherwise.
I agree that you don't need super high refresh rates, even anything over 60 isn't going to make much of a difference. But I do have to disagree about the framerate. Getting your framerate to match your refresh rate is easy, but keeping it there is nearly impossible when you throttle it. My refresh rate is 75Hz, but I would much rather run games at 100 fps, knowing that if I turn too fast or something big happens onscreen, that at most it will dip down to 60, which isn't noticeable. But if I run it at 75Hz it will most likely jump down to 40 or below for a second before the game removes the throttling, and running at 40 fps looks horrible.
    
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post #26 of 34
Quote:
Originally Posted by nathris View Post
I agree that you don't need super high refresh rates, even anything over 60 isn't going to make much of a difference. But I do have to disagree about the framerate. Getting your framerate to match your refresh rate is easy, but keeping it there is nearly impossible when you throttle it. My refresh rate is 75Hz, but I would much rather run games at 100 fps, knowing that if I turn too fast or something big happens onscreen, that at most it will dip down to 60, which isn't noticeable. But if I run it at 75Hz it will most likely jump down to 40 or below for a second before the game removes the throttling, and running at 40 fps looks horrible.
Again, I am not suggesting matching the framerate, but making sure it stays below a certain level.

I am not sure how you think your framerate will be any lower if you lower the maximum framerate. Your minimum framerate is independent of what you have set as the maximum. It seems like you are assuming the framerate will always operate within a certain range, which it clearly does not. You will get the same minimum framerate having a maximum framerate of 75 and a maximum framerate of 50 (assuming your minimum framerate is not greater than either of those two values).
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post #27 of 34
Quote:
Originally Posted by stargate125645 View Post
Again, I am not suggesting matching the framerate, but making sure it stays below a certain level.

I am not sure how you think your framerate will be any lower if you lower the maximum framerate. Your minimum framerate is independent of what you have set as the maximum. It seems like you are assuming the framerate will always operate within a certain range, which it clearly does not. You will get the same minimum framerate having a maximum framerate of 75 and a maximum framerate of 50 (assuming your minimum framerate is not greater than either of those two values).
Umm that was exactly my point, maybe its because you're using an 8600GTS, but the only game I've played at less than 60 fps is Crysis. The whole point of my post is to clarify that your FPS does indeed fluctuate, and a higher average usually means higher minimums because when you throttle your FPS it throttles the system usage, and if something unexpected happens, and you're only using say 60% cpu, then for a brief moment you'll get a major dip in framerates until the system responds by increasing the load.

When I lock my refresh rate in WoW so that I get 60fps it will occasionally dip into the 30s for a second or two, causing either a noticeable "chug" or hitching, but when I run unlocked at 120fps the lowest it will drop to is 60 and the game runs much smoother.
    
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post #28 of 34
Quote:
Originally Posted by stargate125645 View Post
And the few extra milliseconds gained by improving the refresh rate to over 100Hz is so ridiculously minuscule that the chances it will make a difference in your reaction times is negligible and I encourage you to prove otherwise.
Alright I'll try to stay productive instead of just being an ***.

That part I quoted is exactly what I've been talking about. Many seem to think 60hz is enough, but it is far from. In UT2004, my hitscan skill dropped significantly when I moved to this LCD. It felt like a slideshow until I got used to it.

I can tell the difference between 60 and 75, 85 and 100hz. It takes a single sweep of the mouse over the desktop to tell if I'm at 60hz or 75. I'm also not special... I think anyone can tell the difference if it's shown to them - they just don't have the need or care to bother with it. ex: I run COD4 at 60hz because I don't play it competitively.

FYI My hardware is capable of 100+fps @ 1680x1050 @ highest settings, but I run both UT2004 and UT3 @ 1440x900. At that resolution I can run 75hz, which is FAR more important than the clarity of the native resolution. (I also run lowest settings in both games)

PS: ...and I don't see how I can prove this, so PLEASE just take my word for it - why else would I argue about it? But... If you do have a way I can prove it, I'm definitely up for it.
    
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post #29 of 34
Quote:
Originally Posted by nathris View Post
Umm that was exactly my point, maybe its because you're using an 8600GTS, but the only game I've played at less than 60 fps is Crysis. The whole point of my post is to clarify that your FPS does indeed fluctuate, and a higher average usually means higher minimums because when you throttle your FPS it throttles the system usage, and if something unexpected happens, and you're only using say 60% cpu, then for a brief moment you'll get a major dip in framerates until the system responds by increasing the load.

When I lock my refresh rate in WoW so that I get 60fps it will occasionally dip into the 30s for a second or two, causing either a noticeable "chug" or hitching, but when I run unlocked at 120fps the lowest it will drop to is 60 and the game runs much smoother.
I understand what you are getting at, but I am not so sure your explanation is correct (not that I have a correct one). I would think your system will only delay in responding if it is at or near full load. I'll bet there is something else leading to the trend you are observing. For example, the framerate calculated (and what you see) is not an instantaneous value but rather averaged, so you are getting the same low framerate in both instances but the framerate displayed is skewed because it is based upon the previous framerate values. In other words, just because the framerate value displayed is lower in one instance than the the other does not necessarily mean that it actually is lower.

Quote:
Originally Posted by i_hax View Post
Alright I'll try to stay productive instead of just being an ***.

That part I quoted is exactly what I've been talking about. Many seem to think 60hz is enough, but it is far from. In UT2004, my hitscan skill dropped significantly when I moved to this LCD. It felt like a slideshow until I got used to it.

I can tell the difference between 60 and 75, 85 and 100hz. It takes a single sweep of the mouse over the desktop to tell if I'm at 60hz or 75. I'm also not special... I think anyone can tell the difference if it's shown to them - they just don't have the need or care to bother with it. ex: I run COD4 at 60hz because I don't play it competitively.

FYI My hardware is capable of 100+fps @ 1680x1050 @ highest settings, but I run both UT2004 and UT3 @ 1440x900. At that resolution I can run 75hz, which is FAR more important than the clarity of the native resolution. (I also run lowest settings in both games)

PS: ...and I don't see how I can prove this, so PLEASE just take my word for it - why else would I argue about it? But... If you do have a way I can prove it, I'm definitely up for it.
I am not suggesting that you cannot tell the difference, I am suggesting that the difference it makes in your ability to react to what you see is essentially nil. Your reaction time is on the order of tenths of seconds, and any change you see from increased framerate is on the oder of milliseconds, hence the negligible difference. Because you can perceive the difference does not mean you can act on it.

There is also a psychological factor to all of this...

Edit: Perhaps you were initially confused when I said anything below a certain response time is useless. I was merely referring to the monitor's capabilities and not your own, though my views on its effects on your capabilities are now known as well.
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post #30 of 34
Quote:
Originally Posted by stargate125645 View Post
I am not suggesting that you cannot tell the difference, I am suggesting that the difference it makes in your ability to react to what you see is essentially nil. Your reaction time is on the order of tenths of seconds, and any change you see from increased framerate is on the oder of milliseconds, hence the negligible difference. Because you can perceive the difference does not mean you can act on it.
I'll agree with you there.

I doubt it affects my reaction time, but more my ability to time clicking on the enemy. After all, thats what a FPS is - point and click. I believe when I decide to shoot at someone, my 'reaction' and timing is already chosen - From there on I merely flick my arm and click a button at an interval my brain has learned (mouse moves ___cm and click = a shot at ___deg rotation on the screen). If the screen is refreshed more often, then the player I'm aiming at will be more accurately depicted. More so, their trajectory/direction is more perceivable at a higher refresh rate.

I can play just as well with or without a crosshair. Twitch aim - I swing my wrist and click. It honestly 'just happens' - I don't put the slightest thought into it. If they don't die I aim away from them and twitch again. On the other hand, in a slow game where I aim the conventional way I am pretty bad. I'm no good at COD4 and pitiful at CS:S

EDIT: Long story short: There's obviously more than refresh rate at hand here (mouse acceleration disabled via registry and USB polling rate changes, etc) but I do believe it plays a large part in gaming ability.
    
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