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[oxford] ‘Digital piracy’ may benefit companies - Page 8

post #71 of 78
Quote:
Originally Posted by WhiteCrane View Post
wow.

I don't believe copyrights should be enforced if you can prove that you had no intentiopn of buying it in the first place. Not to mention, things like photoshop are tools. not games. If you pirate photoshop to messa round with some pictures, and do not turn a profit on your use of photoshop... I hardly see why Adobe is entitled to money from you.

High end graphics studios are the ones buying photoshop.
Wait, wait. So you're allowed to commit a crime if you were never going to use the product in the first place? Is that really what you think? That's terrible.

I see this thread shutting down in the very near future.
post #72 of 78
Quote:
Originally Posted by pauldovi View Post
There is nothing wrong with reverse engineering a Ferrari as long as you are not doing it for profit. The reason they made digital content illegal to reverse engineer (and copy) is because it is so easy to do (unlike reverse engineering a Ferrari).
Yes, which means it is NOT stealing. Just because it is easier doesn't suddenly make it theft. Just like you say there is nothing wrong with reverse engineering the Ferrari, most pirates see nothing wrong with copying some software they won't pay for anyway. Are you trying to suggest it is the fact that it is easier that suddenly makes it stealing?? Cause that doesn't even make sense
    
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post #73 of 78
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Originally Posted by Jewels View Post
That analogy also fails, in that one would be using someone else's service (not their own copy), and the host would be losing bandwidth. The perpetrator is stealing bandwidth as he/she isn't able to duplicate the bandwidth and use it for him/herself, as strange as that may sound.
I didn't realize that this was a debate about analogy construction...but if you're going to nitpick like this, then let's assume the wardriver is consuming my bandwidth when I'm at work, or when I'm alsleep. Bandwidth is no more tangible than software; and if I'm not using the bandwidth in question, then it's just "lost" bandwidth anyway. Any rationalization that software duplication somehow makes piracy different from stealing would also have to rationalize this scenario as "okay". But it's not. And if I catch anyone wardriving my signal, you better believe I'm going to press charges.

Or how does this one work for you? Assume I have an apple tree in my yard. It's a personal tree, I'm not in the professional apple selling business, so it makes a bazillion more apples than I or my family could possibly ever eat. For all intents and purposes there are infinite apples available to me at little to no additional expense once the tree has been established. They are still my apples, to do with what I will. No one has the right to take any of my apples, despite the fact that they had no intention of going to the grocery to buy their own apple before they discovered mine; and despite the fact that it costs me nothing if they do take my apples. If I did decide to sell some apples, they are mine to charge whatever I want (presumably what the market will bear), and to prevent anyone from partaking if they do not agree to my terms.

I'm sure I can construct more analogies if you're intent in playing this game, but it kind of avoids the point being made to keep playing these word games.

Quote:
Originally Posted by WhiteCrane View Post
I don't believe copyrights should be enforced if you can prove that you had no intentiopn of buying it in the first place.
You can never prove that, I'm very interested in knowing how you would try. The very fact that you were interested in the software enough to download it makes you a potential customer, even if only marginally. (And no one argue that "it's so expensive I would obviously never be a customer"...people buy things they can't afford all the time, so that potential argument is complete crap.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by kmo_9000 View Post
Haha vulcan it lookes like its not your day for analogies lol. But seriously music copying is such a big gray area.
Apparently not...rather than recognizing the point being made, people want to nitpick the details of the analogies.

But also, the only gray area with music copying is whether you're allowed to make your own copies of music you've legally purchased. Sony and the RIAA have recently argued in court that you cannot, that you must buy every copy. No one else on the planet interprets the law this way, so there's your gray area. But there's no gray area around gnutella and torrent style file sharing: always illegal without the explicit consent of the copyright holder.

Quote:
I mean look at Stardock. They made Galactic Civ 2 and Sins Of a Solar Empire and they dont but any copy right stuff on it. People buy their games because there worth it. Because their know their worth the 50$ or so that they are charging.
A notable example, to be sure. But the question of whether to release the game without DRM in an attempt to generate revenue through good will is different from whether it's okay to pirate the game. Even in this instance, it was of course still illegal to pirate it; the lack of DRM doesn't change the copyright status. What it permits is making your own playable backup, a very pro-consumer attitude that I strongly applaud.

Similar things are going on in the music biz now, with Radiohead and Nine Inch Nails releasing entire albums under a "pay what you think it's worth, including nothing" model. I applaud these efforts and hope to see them succeed. But these are breaking new ground, and are not what the Oxford lady was talking about.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jewels View Post
The fact is there are cheap versions of software, but certain features are missing due to the different target market.
As has been pointed out, most major software is available at student pricing that is a fraction of it's retail price. Full versions, not crippled versions.

Quote:
It's not stealing; it's copyright infringement.
Technically true, but that's legal semantics to most people. You may as well try to distinguish between slander and libel...no one but lawyers care, since they are largely the same offense carried out in different forms.

Quote:
Originally Posted by pauldovi View Post
People need to understand what a victimless crime is. For example, a teenager pirating a $50 video game from a company is a "regular" crime. That teenager was a targeted customer of the video game (most likely) and the company lost sales by him pirating it.

However, lets say that that same teenager pirates a $20,000 CAD software. This is a victimless crime as that teenager was never a potential customer for such expensive software, and the company has lost no profit by his activity. Don't get me wrong, it is still a crime, but it is victimless.
That's a bit of a rationalization. IMHO, a victimless crime is something like jaywalking on an empty street; absolutely no other party is involved, yet you can still get a ticket for it. Copying that $20K CAD software does involve another party; whether the teen was really going to buy the software or not, the rights to that software belong to some company, and they were violated. That is not victimless.

As for the gaming example, what about the legions of people who claim they only pirate games they weren't going to buy? I've never seen any real surveys done, but I've seen the excuse often enough that I have to think it's the #1 rationalization for game piracy. The lame excuse of "If I like the game, I'll buy it" is just another form of the same rationalization, by the way (and probably a flagrant lie in most cases).

Quote:
Originally Posted by sublimejhn View Post
You are not charged for burglary when you copy a piece of software, because that is NOT what has been done.
Already made my "legal semantics " argument, but I need to point out that "burglary" is not the only definition of "stealing". "Stealing" is of course a pretty broad term that can be applied to many, many specific acts. No one debates the phrase "stealing cable", even though no breaking-and-entering activity has been performed; a service is just being appropriated through the use of unauthorized equipment or hacks. Legal definitions and nitpicking aside, I do believe that software piracy can be appropriately categorized as "stealing" despite technically falling under copyright law.

Quote:
As long as people view piracy as stealing they will never get anywhere, because I know I personally stop listening to an argument as soon as someone makes the ridiculous claim that piracy is the same as physically stealing an object. Of course it isn't and it is insane to suggest otherwise. Is it still wrong, absolutely. But it is NOT the same as stealing, and the people that commit piracy are not the same people running around robbing banks, because many of them DO have a moral objection to stealing. By using the argument that piracy is theft you are assuming pirates are all immoral people that have no problem with stealing, and you are never going to solve the problem with that narrow minded view
First, I think that the concept of a digital asset being a "real thing" is going to change over the next few years. Just look at MMOs, especially when there's real money involved like in Second Life. People do feel and claim "ownership" of digital assets in those games. Laws evolve based on the will of the people, and if digital assets become "normal" to people, the laws will change to reflect that.

Second, I actually think that arguing that piracy is stealing is a solid preventative measure. If the news is to be believed (which may be a stretch in many cases, I acknowledge), it seems that a huge number of people have no idea that copying software, music, movies, whatever is even illegal. Especially those kids on the college campuses, apparently; that's where I see these stories originate most often. They truly seem clueless that it's not allowed...which I find astonishingly hard to believe, but I've seen these stories several times. So equating illegal copying to "stealing", an easily grasped illegal activity that only the densest moron can claim ignorance to, will carry more force than the nebulous concept of "copyright infringment", which the majority of non-lawyers don't understand or care about.
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post #74 of 78
Quote:
Originally Posted by sublimejhn View Post
Yes, which means it is NOT stealing. Just because it is easier doesn't suddenly make it theft. Just like you say there is nothing wrong with reverse engineering the Ferrari, most pirates see nothing wrong with copying some software they won't pay for anyway. Are you trying to suggest it is the fact that it is easier that suddenly makes it stealing?? Cause that doesn't even make sense
Quote:
Originally Posted by VulcanDragon View Post
That's a bit of a rationalization. IMHO, a victimless crime is something like jaywalking on an empty street; absolutely no other party is involved, yet you can still get a ticket for it. Copying that $20K CAD software does involve another party; whether the teen was really going to buy the software or not, the rights to that software belong to some company, and they were violated. That is not victimless.

As for the gaming example, what about the legions of people who claim they only pirate games they weren't going to buy? I've never seen any real surveys done, but I've seen the excuse often enough that I have to think it's the #1 rationalization for game piracy. The lame excuse of "If I like the game, I'll buy it" is just another form of the same rationalization, by the way (and probably a flagrant lie in most cases).
I am not rationalizing anything. I don't have a single piece of music or software on my computer that I didn't pay for. However, there is a technical difference between steeling a digital product from which you never could possibly buy and one that you could.

Many people argue they pirate games because they were not going to buy it. You don't purchase something because it is not valuable to you. Why then, would you take the time to pirate it? It is clearly valuable to you, you just seek the cheaper means of acquiring it. These people are lying in an attempt to justify their action.
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post #75 of 78
Actualy Vulcan in Canada it is legal to copy music for your personal usage. Thats what tha laws are now. Of cource the Music companies have tried to change it a couple of times and tried to sue a bunch of people but they have had no success. The ISP's never revealed who the people were and they were never forced to by the government.
    
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post #76 of 78
Quote:
Originally Posted by pauldovi View Post
I am not rationalizing anything. I don't have a single piece of music or software on my computer that I didn't pay for. However, there is a technical difference between steeling a digital product from which you never could possibly buy and one that you could.

Many people argue they pirate games because they were not going to buy it. You don't purchase something because it is not valuable to you. Why then, would you take the time to pirate it? It is clearly valuable to you, you just seek the cheaper means of acquiring it. These people are lying in an attempt to justify their action.
I think you have the wrong idea of pirating games. Most games now days are on dual layer dvd's which take up like over 8 gigs of dada. Using the average torent that wold take you over a day to download, using rapid share that would max our your daily limit and with private torrent sites that would max out your ratio. Its not as easy as people think to pirate. I almost downloaded Kains Wrath the expantion to C&C 3 but I realised that it was going to take forever. So i just bought it. I bought it partly because it was much easier (no crack, dont have to worry about online play) but also because it was a quality game.
Money isnt everything. And most people I know who take the time to download games do go out and buy it if the game is good.

EDIT: Even If I had downloaded Kains Wrath I would have bought it eventualy because I have bought every C&C game since the first one.
    
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post #77 of 78
Quote:
Originally Posted by VulcanDragon View Post
Absolute drivel. The seller is always harmed when someone steals their goods. If I want a Ferarri but can't afford one, I don't get to steal it and claim the seller wasn't harmed because I would never have actually bought one. Trying to argue that it's a digital asset and not a physical asset is just an attempt to justify the theft.

But for the sake of argument, let's engage in her little economic model. When someone pirates, their entire incentive to purhase the software is gone. Maybe they would have saved up for that expensive copy of Photoshop if buying it was their only option. But if they easily pirate it instead, that potential sale is lost, and the company is definitely harmed. Why buy the cow when you can get the milk for free?

Now let's take it a step farther, a true economic picture: The previous scenario is probably not all that common, but it is common that people who want Photoshop might very well settle for Photoshop Elements, or one of the other sub-$100 consumer alternatives. But if they can get full Photoshop easily on the torrent sites, why bother with the inexpensive, but definitely affordable, consumer versions? Now companies, the market as a whole, most definitely is being harmed...sales are being lost by someone, if not necessarily the actual product being pirated.

So in this short, this lady is frickin retarded and should be chastised by her university for making such publicly embarassing comments. Shame.
lol never heard you call anyone a retard. I agree
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post #78 of 78
Quote:
Originally Posted by VulcanDragon View Post
I'm sure I can construct more analogies if you're intent in playing this game, but it kind of avoids the point being made to keep playing these word games.
Make as many as you want; the only ones valid would involve copying or not having the permissions/rights of usage. The point I'm making is that if copying is involved, then no stealing is involved.

Quote:
Originally Posted by VulcanDragon View Post
Technically true, but that's legal semantics to most people.
And that's all I wanted to demonstrate; copyright infringement isn't stealing.
The term "stealing" should be reserved for a more suitable context.

Quote:
Originally Posted by VulcanDragon View Post
The very fact that you were interested in the software enough to download it makes you a potential customer, even if only marginally. (And no one argue that "it's so expensive I would obviously never be a customer"...people buy things they can't afford all the time, so that potential argument is complete crap.)
Just because some people buy things they can't afford all the time doesn't render that argument invalid. There are people who would never buy certain software due to such high prices, and only download the software because the software is available to download freely. If there was no other option except to buy that particular software, they would settle for a lower cost or free alternative, meaning they would never be a potential customer for the original piece of software in the first place. Although that can't be proven, it doesn't mean it doesn't happen.

Quote:
Originally Posted by VulcanDragon View Post
Legal definitions and nitpicking aside, I do believe that software piracy can be appropriately categorized as "stealing" despite technically falling under copyright law.
Well, as software piracy is technically copyright infringement, it's what it should be called. I'm sure though "stealing" carries more negative connotations than the technical term "copyright infringement" which over time has ceased to carry much weight, so some would prefer to categorise software piracy as such. Some would justify their piracy as correct because they simply argue "it's not stealing" yet fail to realise the other factors involved.

Quote:
Originally Posted by VulcanDragon View Post
First, I think that the concept of a digital asset being a "real thing" is going to change over the next few years. Just look at MMOs, especially when there's real money involved like in Second Life. People do feel and claim "ownership" of digital assets in those games. Laws evolve based on the will of the people, and if digital assets become "normal" to people, the laws will change to reflect that.
They would become more "real" if they couldn't be copied easily. When it comes to stealing physical items, you are removing items from a owner's possession. If one could "rob" a bank by simply duplicating all the money inside, yet all the original money is left inside the bank, it's much harder to say use the term "rob" in that scenario.

Money is physical and digital. The money in my bank account is just a number, and if someone duplicated that money for themselves, yet not a penny is removed from my account, it's hard for me to say they stole from me because I haven't lost anything. If it's a transfer, then it's stealing. I see the number in my account as real, because I can lose it via various means, and I can't just duplicate it.
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