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post #511 of 29551
Quote:
Originally Posted by ecoyd1 View Post
500th post!

had to.

OT: Those look more like just shadow balanced or something, and their not really "true" HDR. Now that I think about it, Nikon has a similar feature called D-Lighting where you can manually lift the shadows or brighten the image. You can also add filter effects, crop, ect in camera.
Quote:
Originally Posted by GoneTomorrow View Post
Agreed, it's a nifty feature, but not what I would call HDR. Nikon's D-Lighting feature is right on the money for a comparison and probably a competing feature.

Here's an awesome HDR shot I found (too big to display):

http://www.rnrh.net/images/blog/hdr-..._forgotten.jpg
Apparently, what the camera does, is to look at the dark and light areas in a shot, determine the best degree of exposure for both individually, effectively expose two shots and then merge them into one to create higher dynamic range. Is that not, essentially, the HDR process? Expose for the highlights, expose for the shadows and then judiciously merge?

I know that, for really vivid HDR shots, photographers often create, up to seven different versions of the same shots and then manually merge them, controlling every aspect, like what elements of a shot to merge, in what direction, to what degree, etc. Like the shot linked to, these can create really surreal, artistic images.

If I've got the wrong idea here, don't hesitate to correct me! I'd rather be corrected and learn, than persist with a misconception!

Also, I've been looking into the 40D and I can honestly say I like it. The implementation of live view is much better than the K20D, it has much faster continuous shooting, the 40D's remote control via a PC is pretty cool and it just seems a very well constructed camera.

However, on the down side, it's image quality doesn't quite meet the K20Ds (in reviews I've seen) it's RGB noise is a little greater then the K20Ds and it's not quite as sharp and doesn't resolve quite as much detail. In addition, the dust management system isn't quite as good as the K20Ds either. Plus, it's 4.5 mega-pixels less than the K20D meaning that the K20D captures 44.5% more information, which really makes a difference; especially so if you want big prints (I do) and occasionally crop images to improve composition (which I also do). I could crop to improve composition and still end up with a 10 or 12 MP image. The less interpolation for big prints, the better.

The only camera I can see getting at the moment, other than the K20D, is the D300. It's probably the best camera I've researched and I'd be happy to loose 2.3 mega-pixels over the K20D, simply due to how excellently implemented every feature of the D300 seems to be.

The options are:

D300: ~ £1000 online in the UK
105mm Nikkor Macro VR lens ~ £450 online in the UK
18-200mm Nikkor VR lens ~ £400 online in the UK.

Total: ~ £1850 ($3640 USD)

The alternative is:

K20D: ~ £700 online in the UK.
105mm Sigma Macro ~ £300 online in the UK.
18-200mm Sigma ~ £250 online in the UK.

Total: ~ £1250 ($2460 USD)

Both the 105mm Sigma Macro and the 18-200mm Sigma lenses get good reviews (especially the macro lens), produce good results and are good value. For example, I've seen a comparison between the 18-200mm Sigma and Nikkor lenses and although the Nikkor is better, it's not hugely better. They're perfect for my needs. I could leave the 18-200mm on all the time and use it for everything other than macro and then swap over to the macro lens when I wanted to take macro shots.

With the money I'd save going with the K20D option, I could buy a bunch of assessories, including extra batteries, extra memory cards, a high quality MC Protector for both lenses, filters, another camera case (and sell the one I've got with my FZ50) and get a flashgun as well and still be under the cost of the D300 option. I could also use my existing SD and SDHC cards with the K20D. I could even get a third lens for really wide-angle if I wanted.

With the D300 option, I'd be on an extremely tight budget. In fact, I'm not even sure I'll have the funds available to go with that option and I may have to save up some extra cash before a purchase. I'd have to make do with much more limited assessors to start and I'd probably have to end up buying them over time. Those accessories would have to include memory cards as well, as the D300 uses compact flash, which I don't have and which is about 2x the cost of SDHC. Also, with flashguns coming in at around £300 online in the UK, I could forget getting one of those up front. However, the D300 is a better camera.

I’d appreciate some constructive criticism on the options.

Highly-Annoyed
Edited by Highly-Annoyed - 5/20/08 at 2:49pm
    
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post #512 of 29551
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Highly-Annoyed View Post
Apparently, what the camera does, is to look at the dark and light areas in a shot, determine the best degree of exposure for both individually, effectively expose two shots and then merge them into one to create higher dynamic range. Is that not, essentially, the HDR process? Expose for the highlights, expose for the shadows and then judiciously merge?

I know that, for really vivid HDR shots, photographers often create, up to seven different versions of the same shots and then manually merge them, controlling every aspect, like what elements of a shot to merge, in what direction, to what degree, etc. Like the shot linked to, these can create really surreal, artistic images.

If I've got the wrong idea here, don't hesitate to correct me! I'd rather be corrected and learn, than persist with a misconception!

Also, I've been looking into the 40D and I can honestly say I like it. The implementation of live view is much better than the K20D, it has much faster continuous shooting, the 40D's remote control via a PC is pretty cool and it just seems a very well constructed camera.

However, on the down side, it's image quality doesn't quite meet the K20Ds (in reviews I've seen) it's RGB noise is a little greater then the K20Ds and it's not quite as sharp and doesn't resolve quite as much detail. In addition, the dust management system isn't quite as good as the K20Ds either. Plus, it's 4.5 mega-pixels less than the K20D meaning that the K20D captures 44.5% more information, which really makes a difference; especially so if you want big prints (I do) and occasionally crop images to improve composition (which I also do). I could crop to improve composition and still end up with a 10 or 12 MP image. The less interpolation for big prints, the better.

The only camera I can see getting at the moment, other than the K20D, is the D300. It's probably the best camera I've researched and I'd be happy to loose 2.3 mega-pixels over the K20D, simply due to how excellently implemented every feature of the D300 seems to be.

The options are:

D300: ~ £1000 online in the UK
105mm Nikkor Macro VR lens ~ £450 online in the UK
18-200mm Nikkor VR lens ~ £400 online in the UK.

Total: ~ £1850 ($3640 USD)

The alternative is:

K20D: ~ £700 online in the UK.
105mm Sigma Macro ~ £300 online in the UK.
18-200mm Sigma ~ £250 online in the UK.

Total: ~ £1250 ($2460 USD)

Both the 105mm Sigma Macro and the 18-200mm Sigma lenses get good reviews (especially the macro lens), produce good results and are good value. For example, I've seen a comparison between the 18-200mm Sigma and Nikkor lenses and although the Nikkor is better, it's not hugely better. They're perfect for my needs. I could leave the 18-200mm on all the time and use it for everything other than macro and then swap over to the macro lens when I wanted to take macro shots.

With the money I'd save going with the K20D option, I could buy a bunch of assessors, including extra batteries, extra memory cards, a high quality MC Protector for both lenses, filters, another camera case (and sell the one I've got with my FZ50) and get a flashgun as well and still be under the cost of the D300 option. I could also use my existing SD and SDHC cards with the K20D. I could even get a third lens for really wide-angle if I wanted.

With the D300 option, I'd be on an extremely tight budget. In fact, I'm not even sure I'll have the funds available to go with that option and I may have to save up some extra cash before a purchase. I'd have to make do with much more limited assessors to start and I'd probably have to end up buying them over time. Those accessories would have to include memory cards as well, as the D300 uses compact flash, which I don't have and which is about 2x the cost of SDHC. Also, with flashguns coming in at around £300 online in the UK, I could forget getting one of those up front. However, the D300 is a better camera.

I’d appreciate some constructive criticism on the options.

Highly-Annoyed
Well if we're going to get into semantics, then yes, what the K20D does amounts to HDR. However, I don't think that it can match what manual exposure blending with software can produce. If it actually can, please do post some shots when and if you get the camera.

And regarding CCD resolution, 15 megapixels is rather superfluous. If you are looking to make a print at enormous proportions, on the order of 10 feet on side or more, then it would benefit. 10 megapixels will produce very large prints. In fact I had a 30" x 40" canvas print made from a 3 MP image from and it looks fine.

Inflated CCD resolutions on cameras are mostly for market appeal. However, a large resolution does allow you have more detail in 100% crop, so that is a benefit.

I think your plan to get the K20D is better. Although it's a very good camera, over a $1000 more for a D300 setup is a lot. If you can justify it financially and think that you will have the wherewithal for future upgrades, then go for the D300. I knew going into DSLR that I couldn't justify buying a really expensive body, so the XTi was as much as I cold afford, though in hindsight I wish I had held out for the XSi.
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post #513 of 29551
Hey guys sorry to jack this thread but i though it would be better here than a whole new thread...I want to get a digital camera...I have approximately ~£100 to spend..could you guys point me in a good direction?


Here are some sites you could look at for me

www.scan.co.uk
www.ebuyer.com
www.argos.co.uk

dont really know any others...thanks for your help
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post #514 of 29551
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by .Style View Post
Hey guys sorry to jack this thread but i though it would be better here than a whole new thread...I want to get a digital camera...I have approximately ~£100 to spend..could you guys point me in a good direction?


Here are some sites you could look at for me

www.scan.co.uk
www.ebuyer.com
www.argos.co.uk

dont really know any others...thanks for your help
If you can find it at a UK reseller, the Fuji Finepix S700 is a good camera for the money and your budget. Also, a Canon Powershot S3 is a good choice although it is slightly more than your budget. Otherwise your budget will limit you to a compact/ultra compact camera.
Edited by GoneTomorrow - 5/20/08 at 1:30pm
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post #515 of 29551
Quote:
Originally Posted by GoneTomorrow View Post
Well if we're going to get into semantics, then yes, what the K20D does amounts to HDR. However, I don't think that it can match what manual exposure blending with software can produce. If it actually can, please do post some shots when and if you get the camera.

And regarding CCD resolution, 15 megapixels is rather superfluous. If you are looking to make a print at enormous proportions, on the order of 10 feet on side or more, then it would benefit. 10 megapixels will produce very large prints. In fact I had a 30" x 40" canvas print made from a 3 MP image from and it looks fine.

Inflated CCD resolutions on cameras are mostly for market appeal. However, a large resolution does allow you have more detail in 100% crop, so that is a benefit.

I think your plan to get the K20D is better. Although it's a very good camera, over a $1000 more for a D300 setup is a lot. If you can justify it financially and think that you will have the wherewithal for future upgrades, then go for the D300. I knew going into DSLR that I couldn't justify buying a really expensive body, so the XTi was as much as I cold afford, though in hindsight I wish I had held out for the XSi.
Thanks for your reply.

Yeah, I'm keen on logic; linguistic, formal, informal, I just like it .

I totally agree with respect to HDR. There's no way the in-camera HDR can compete with what photographers can achieve with exposure bracketing and/or RAW processing and software. For one, a lot of photographers use many more than just two exposures to create the HDR effect and some may use different colour saturations to combine also. All this adds up to a much more impressive and artistic result that the camera alone certainly can't compete with.

Having said that though, HDR, straight out of the camera, regardless of how un-artistic it might be, is a pretty handy feature that I'm sure will save a lot of detail from being lost in over and under-exposed areas, in high contrast shots.

I had a 10MP shot printed on canvas at 24 inch x 36 inch and it looked pretty good when you stood 5 or 6 feet away. But even at this size, with 10MP, interpolation (up-scaling) is required, which (as you probably know) essentially "makes up" new pixels based on information regarding the surrounding pixels and can lead to soft edges and poorly defined details. Even 14.6MP would require interpolation for 24x36 inch, but a fair bit less than 10MP, which would result in a crisper image. That's assuming you use the lowest PPI most photographers seem to recommend of 240PPI. If you drop the PPI down to 145 or so, you can print 14.6MP at 24"x36" with no interpolation, but I don't know how coarse that would look from three or four feet away...

What really interests me about the 14.6MP, is the ability to crop where I like and still end up with a good size image for large prints. I'm not great at photography, so I often need to "fix" shots in post production, which can entail cropping to produce a more pleasing composition. If I lop off 25% of a 14.6MP image, I'm still left with a little over 10MP to print. If I do the same with 10MP, I'm down to 7.5MP, which requires more interpolation resulting in a softening of the image, or significant lowering of the DPI and the resultant coarseness of an image, in a large print.

I may like to print 30"x40", 40"x60", or even bigger if possible, so, although that can be done with interpolation and lowering of the DPI, the more mega-pixels you have, the less of those up-scaling techniques are required and the more crisp and faithful the final print can be.

I'm definitely swayed towards the K20D for many reasons, not least that it'll probably be more realistic for me to afford it. Having looked into several alternatives though, I have to say the D300 looks very nice indeed. Even with 18.7% fewer pixels than the K20D, it's just seems a much better executed tool, put together well, with the end user in mind. The K20D is a good camera and good value, but the live view seems a bit rubbish in the reviews I've seen and I would probably use that for Macro shooting more than the viewfinder. The D300's live view is really well implemented and thought through, as the whole camera seems to be.

I guess I'll have to see how my finances go. I'm expecting a lump sum of cash within the next couple of months or so, but I don't know how much yet. If it's better than I expect, I could opt for the D300, if it's what I expect, or not as good, the K20D. I have to say, I'm just blown away by how professional the D300 looks and how well executed the camera is. I'd even be willing to give up in-camera IS (and take on the extra expense of lenses) to get one if I could, so impressed have I been.

Anyway, thanks to you and other's who've helped me. I appreciate your advice and guidance. I think I will pop down to one of the local camera shops and have a look at some of the stock first hand, to get a feel for the cameras.

Thanks all!

Highly-Annoyed
Edited by Highly-Annoyed - 5/20/08 at 2:38pm
    
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post #516 of 29551
Quote:
Originally Posted by GoneTomorrow View Post
If you can find it at a UK reseller, the Fuji Finepix S700 is a good camera for the money and your budget. Also, a Canon Powershot S3 is a good choice although it is slightly more than your budget. Otherwise your budget will limit you to a compact/ultra compact camera.
Ok i know my budget isnt great, im not loking for a SLR or w/e they are..just a digital camera with decent features...

edit: just checked out the fuji finepix s700 and it looks good...although i was more looking for a small digital camera..compact...jus wanted to know what was good and what was not..although thanks for the suggestions....anyway is that fuji s700 really good for that price? the specs look good....anyone else had expereiences with it before?
Edited by .Style - 5/20/08 at 2:44pm
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post #517 of 29551
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by .Style View Post
Ok i know my budget isnt great, im not loking for a SLR or w/e they are..just a digital camera with decent features...

edit: just checked out the fuji finepix s700 and it looks good...although i was more looking for a small digital camera..compact...jus wanted to know what was good and what was not..although thanks for the suggestions....anyway is that fuji s700 really good for that price? the specs look good....anyone else had expereiences with it before?
mugan, the guy who started this thread has an S700 I believe, go back and look at his shots. Here's a review on it:
http://www.dcresource.com/reviews/fu...x_s700-review/
Basically, for the price, it's superb, but definitely not the best ultra zoom you can get.

If you want a good ultra compact, I would recommend anything from Canon's SD lineup, particularly the SD1000 or SD1100IS which are the fastest power on to shot in their class.

For compacts, anything from Canon's A lineup is decent the Canon A590 IS is a good choice as is the SD870 IS.

I'm not just being partial to Canon either. It's just that Canon is currently making the most quality for value ultra compacts and compacts these days. Sony, Panasonic and Fuji make very decent compacts but they get pricey, as the compact size category is becoming increasingly more expensive and the low end cheaper cameras are being relegated to the ultra compact range.

I think that if you confined your search to Canon, Fuji, Panasonic or Sony you can't go wrong, just read reviews. I would avoid Nikon, Kodak, Minolta, Olympus, HP and Casio. Not that they're all bad, but I consistent read positive reviews for compact and ultra compact cameras from the first four brands I mentioned.

A couple of good review sites:
www.dpreview.com
www.dcresource.com

Hope this helps.
Edited by GoneTomorrow - 5/20/08 at 3:46pm
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post #518 of 29551
Canon is superior in the point and shoot market.
post #519 of 29551
I guess I'll join.

Canon 400D ($319 brand new)
Canon BG-E3 Battery Grip w/ 2 NLB-2H Batteries (CL steal for grip, battery, and Canon remote for $95)
Canon 18-55 IS
Canon 70-200mm f/4L w/ hood, filters
Canon 100-400mm f/4.5-5.6L IS w/ hood, filters
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Canon Wireless Remote
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Tripod (awaiting a nice one)
Manfrotto 679B Monopod w. 3232 head
SanDisk Extreme III 4gb CF card
Lowepro Fastpack 250

P&S - Fujifilm S700 (paid $80 brand new!)



Now for some examples:
18-55 IS:



70-200 f/4L:



100-400 L IS (Came out a little overexposed, and I didn't shoot in RAW, so I can't adjust it too much):


Edited by BrinNutz - 5/21/08 at 10:32am
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post #520 of 29551
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by BrinNutz View Post
I guess I'll join.

Canon 400D ($319 brand new)
Canon BG-E3 Battery Grip w/ 2 NLB-2H Batteries (CL steal for grip, battery, and Canon remote for $95)
Canon 18-55 IS
Canon 70-200mm f/4L w/ hood, filters
Canon 100-400mm f/4.5-5.6L IS w/ hood, filters
Multiple Filters
Canon Wireless Remote
Canon Wired Remote
Tripod (awaiting a nice one)
Manfrotto 679B Monopod w. 3232 head
SanDisk Extreme III 4gb CF card
Lowepro Fastpack 250

P&S - Fujifilm S700 (paid $80 brand new!)


Now for some examples:
18-55 IS:

70-200 f/4L:

100-400 L IS (Came out a little overexposed, and I didn't shoot in RAW, so I can't adjust it too much):
Welcome and nice hardware! Although the 400D is an excellent camera (I love mine), I would think that someone with two L class lenses would have a better camera body, like a 40D or 5D. The lenses costs more individually than your camera body (except for the kit lensof course)!
Brick Sh*thouse
(26 items)
 
   
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Intel i5 2520M Lenovo ThinkPad X220 Intel i5 Motherboard 04W2109 Intel HD3000 Crucial 4x2 GB DDR3 PC1333 
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Samsung 840 120GB SSD Nope Itty-Bitty Fans and Heatsinks Windows 10 Professional 64-bit 
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Brick Sh*thouse
(26 items)
 
   
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
Intel i5 2520M Lenovo ThinkPad X220 Intel i5 Motherboard 04W2109 Intel HD3000 Crucial 4x2 GB DDR3 PC1333 
Hard DriveOptical DriveCoolingOS
Samsung 840 120GB SSD Nope Itty-Bitty Fans and Heatsinks Windows 10 Professional 64-bit 
MonitorKeyboardPowerCase
LG 12.5" 1366x768 IPS Lenovo Keyboard Lenovo 90W AC Adapter Lenovo X Series ThinkPad Chassis 
MouseMouse PadAudioOther
Logitech M510 Desk Conexant 1 Watt Stereo Speakers Lenovo TrackPoint 
Other
Lenovo TouchPad 
  hide details  
Reply
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Overclock.net › Forums › Consumer Electronics › Photography › [Official] OCN Camera Thread