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[newegg] 2000w PSU (that's not a typo) on the egg! - Page 12

post #111 of 118
Quote:
Originally Posted by pauldovi View Post
Using multiple rails is cheaper than using a single higher power rail. So, the few power supplies that used a single rail were always high end. People associated the single rail with quality and high end. So you can make a powersupply of equal quality and electrical strength using both a single rail and multiple rail setup, people associate single rail with quality.
Hey Paul. Whats up?

That's actually quite incorrect. Multiple +12V rail PSU's aren't cheaper. Single +12V rail PSU's aren't more expensive to build. You actually start with the same platform either way. To make the multiple +12V rail model, you actually ADD additional components to split and limit and in some cases filter the separate +12V rails.

I'm not sure who perpetuated the whole "single +12V rail PSU's are more expensive to make because the one rail has to be 'stronger'" myth, but it's a big lie.

On the retail end of things, single +12V rail PSU's aren't generally more expensive. PC Power & Cooling is generally more expensive and they happen to use a single +12V rail design. They're also heavy into marketing so..... So maybe it's just the fact that the most expensive PSU on the market happens to have a single +12V rail, but that doesn't translate into "single +12V rail PSU's in general are more expensive...."

If you look at most of the OEM's, except Seasonic, you'll see that their base designs are actually multiple +12V rail. Channel Well, Andyson, Enhance, etc. All multiple +12V rail. If they end up as single +12V rail units, that is not by the choice of the OEM and their engineers. It's the choice of the marketing folks and their bean counters. They have the OEM remove the additional OCP circuitry and solder up the output leads into one big output. In the end: It's easier to pitch the idea of single +12V rail than to actually try to educate a customer as to how and why the +12V rail is split and they get to save a couple bucks off the BOM.

Who are you going to trust? Engineers that design this stuff from the ground up or some marketing guy who's going to tell you that his product does magic while some bean counter stands over his back counting the number of items on the BOM.
post #112 of 118
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post #113 of 118
Quote:
Originally Posted by jonnyGURU View Post
Hey Paul. Whats up?

That's actually quite incorrect. Multiple +12V rail PSU's aren't cheaper. Single +12V rail PSU's aren't more expensive to build. You actually start with the same platform either way. To make the multiple +12V rail model, you actually ADD additional components to split and limit and in some cases filter the separate +12V rails.

I'm not sure who perpetuated the whole "single +12V rail PSU's are more expensive to make because the one rail has to be 'stronger'" myth, but it's a big lie.

On the retail end of things, single +12V rail PSU's aren't generally more expensive. PC Power & Cooling is generally more expensive and they happen to use a single +12V rail design. They're also heavy into marketing so..... So maybe it's just the fact that the most expensive PSU on the market happens to have a single +12V rail, but that doesn't translate into "single +12V rail PSU's in general are more expensive...."

If you look at most of the OEM's, except Seasonic, you'll see that their base designs are actually multiple +12V rail. Channel Well, Andyson, Enhance, etc. All multiple +12V rail. If they end up as single +12V rail units, that is not by the choice of the OEM and their engineers. It's the choice of the marketing folks and their bean counters. They have the OEM remove the additional OCP circuitry and solder up the output leads into one big output. In the end: It's easier to pitch the idea of single +12V rail than to actually try to educate a customer as to how and why the +12V rail is split and they get to save a couple bucks off the BOM.

Who are you going to trust? Engineers that design this stuff from the ground up or some marketing guy who's going to tell you that his product does magic while some bean counter stands over his back counting the number of items on the BOM.
I <3 Magic Products!


Companies actually go through the effort of opening up PSUs and soldering bypasses to make single rail PSUs? For real?
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post #114 of 118
I'm pretty sure that, like desktop CPU clock speeds, desktop PSU power has maxed out as far as need goes.
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post #115 of 118
Quote:
Originally Posted by DuckieHo View Post
Companies actually go through the effort of opening up PSUs and soldering bypasses to make single rail PSUs? For real?
Well... the product is already "opened" when the work is done... but yeah.

Example:

The first thing that I did for Ultra when I was working with them was the X-Pro 750W:

http://enthusiast.hardocp.com/articl...50aHVzaWFzdA==



The unit is based off of a SevenTeam ST-750EAJ. The unit was originally a server PSU and the rails were split up using an SSI EPS12V guideline. I wanted the unit to be a gamer's units and have four PCIe connectors (8800 GTX just came out around the same time) but that would NEVER work on an SSI EPS12V adhering PSU (see the original SilverStone Strider 600W and the early Turbo-Cool 850W and 1kW units that put PCIe connectors on the same rail as Molexes and SATAs as an example of how/why that doesn't work). For that to work with the split +12V rails I would have to re-arrange things considerably. Honestly, I was too lazy and really "too green" to think about using an ATX12V set up with each pair of PCIe connectors on their own +12V rail (I know better now, of course), so I just removed the OCP PCB altogether, soldererd down "jumpers" across the multiple +12V outputs and called it a "single +12V rail PSU" (madmat actually had a good picture of the solder bridge job somewhere, but I can't seem to find it right now.) Saved a little over $2 off the cost of the unit too, never mind the time to re-map how things are soldered down, R&D costs, etc.

All of the Andyson units used for the X3 power supplies were done the same way. Those units were natively 4x +12V. The OCP was removed and voila! Single +12V rails. Corsair does the same thing with the CWT built units. Those are natively 4x +12V rail too. The Thermaltake Toughpower is actually the CWT in it's "native form".
post #116 of 118
Quote:
Originally Posted by jonnyGURU View Post
Well... the product is already "opened" when the work is done... but yeah.

Example:

The first thing that I did for Ultra when I was working with them was the X-Pro 750W:

http://enthusiast.hardocp.com/articl...50aHVzaWFzdA==



The unit is based off of a SevenTeam ST-750EAJ. The unit was originally a server PSU and the rails were split up using an SSI EPS12V guideline. I wanted the unit to be a gamer's units and have four PCIe connectors (8800 GTX just came out around the same time) but that would NEVER work on an SSI EPS12V adhering PSU (see the original SilverStone Strider 600W and the early Turbo-Cool 850W and 1kW units that put PCIe connectors on the same rail as Molexes and SATAs as an example of how/why that doesn't work). For that to work with the split +12V rails I would have to re-arrange things considerably. Honestly, I was too lazy and really "too green" to think about using an ATX12V set up with each pair of PCIe connectors on their own +12V rail (I know better now, of course), so I just removed the OCP PCB altogether, soldererd down "jumpers" across the multiple +12V outputs and called it a "single +12V rail PSU" (madmat actually had a good picture of the solder bridge job somewhere, but I can't seem to find it right now.) Saved a little over $2 off the cost of the unit too, never mind the time to re-map how things are soldered down, R&D costs, etc.

All of the Andyson units used for the X3 power supplies were done the same way. Those units were natively 4x +12V. The OCP was removed and voila! Single +12V rails. Corsair does the same thing with the CWT built units. Those are natively 4x +12V rail too. The Thermaltake Toughpower is actually the CWT in it's "native form".
Interesting... how was $2 saved? Or was this done during the initial manufacturing and the OCP circuitry never installed? Wouldn't the UL need to recertify the modified design?
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post #117 of 118
Quote:
Originally Posted by DuckieHo View Post
Interesting... how was $2 saved? Or was this done during the initial manufacturing and the OCP circuitry never installed? Wouldn't the UL need to recertify the modified design?
The $2 was saved on not installing the OCP circuitry in the first place. It was simply removed from the BOM.

I say it was "removed" but I guess I should be more clear: It was removed from the design. There weren't a bunch of SevenTeam PSU's sitting around that they opened up and removed parts out of.

Contrary to popular belief, PSU companies don't literraly "slap their label on someone else's product" like they typically do with graphics cards, motherboards, etc. PSU factories actually have little to no inventory (which sucks because it leads to long lead times, but I digress.) The PSU company is essentially sold a design by the OEM. Sure this could be an off the shelf design that's been used a million times over, but the product isn't built sitting on a shelf waiting for a sticker except for maybe a couple samples left around to use as examples, samples, QC reference, etc. The design may be changed a little, like removing the OCP for example, and then once approved by engineering, marketing, etc. and the BOM (bill of materials) is written up, the components are purchased, pulled together on a pallet and dropped off on the factory floor. Then the fun begins of putting it all together, testing it, slapping a label on it and boxing it with whatever accessories (power cord, manual, etc.) and shipped.

Yes, the unit had to be re-certified by UL, but when you forego the the 240VA safety, you're merely moving the product over from a class 3 consumer product to class 5 industrial.
post #118 of 118
Quote:
Originally Posted by Armadi110 View Post
agreed, im glad im not the only one seeing fools on this thread, also i have to disagree with the terms you use, i really dont like it when ppl use the term 'wattage' or ' amperage' maybe its just me or cos im from England but IMO it should be 'Power output' and 'Current', the only reason its called voltage is because the Volt is the unit and Voltage is the term.

Current = Amps
Power = Watts
Voltage = Volts

I have never come across the term wattage or amperage used in England

Sorry, just had to get that off my chest
Hmmm, I use and hear those terms on a daily basis at work so there just in my vocabulary. I'm guessing it just one of those things that depends where you are located. Started as slang I guess.

Your are correct with your terms though, good old I x E=P
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