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Help : Raid 0+1 or Raid 5 ???? - Page 2

post #11 of 33
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dman View Post
0+1 is hardware for the most part on motherboards. Raid 5 is software based on the motherboards and as a result you will get very slow read/write times. For raid 5 you really need a dedicated card. Raid 0 = stripping, 2 drives become 1 drive and you theoretically get 2x the throughput. Raid 1 = Mirroring. 2 drives, one is a backup copy of the 1st so if 1 drive dies you can restore its contents by replacing it. Raid 0+1 stripping + mirroring, not quite as fast as raid 0, but you get the backup features of raid 1. Raid 5 is stripping + parity. 2 drives combined to increase speed, 1 extra drive for the parity bit, so if a drive on the array dies you can rebuild the entire array by replacing the dead drive. If a HD dies in raid 0, you will lose all your stuff.
There are a few incorrect statements in that. RAID 5 is hardware, unless you are using windows server operating systems. All the parity calculations are done by the southbridge.

RAID 10/0+1 is as fast, if not faster than RAID 0, as all the drives can be read from simultaneously.

It is not a backup. A backup is where you save important files onto a seperate device. A backup is safe if a rootkit kills your hard drives. Not so for a raid 5/0+1 array. That is called redundancy. If a hard disk fails, the computer will still work, until you replace the hard drive.


My suggestion is that you go with raid 5.
Raid 5 has read speeds very similar to raid 0, and the only problem is that it has to calculate parity, so has slower write speeds.

Video editing and gaming do not require high write speeds, and gaming especially is dependent on read speeds. RAID 5 will generally give better read speeds than raid 0+1 with 4 disks, although write speeds will be slower.
In conclusion, I think that you should go with RAID 5. you will have slightly higher read speeds, and much more storage, although you do pay a write penalty for this. 0+1 is for 'crazy but cool', 5 is much better.
    
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post #12 of 33
Quote:
Originally Posted by guyladouche View Post
RAID 0+1 won't give you extra performance since you'd be limited to the speed of a single HD (the HD that's going to be recording the mirrored data from the two striped drives). I'd say if you have the cash for 4 HD's, definitely go with RAID5--gives you the extra performance plus the parity. But just keep in mind--just because you are mirroring drives, doesn't guarantee a backup--I had a computer with a RAID 5 array, the computer took a power surge, data was corrupted on the main striped drives, and the data was mirrored onto the two secondary drives--so a lot of my data was lost despite the parity... Always back up your data to a separate physical drive (or DVD)...
0+1 uses 4 drives, 2 stripped, 2 mirroring. Raid 5 requires at least 3 drives.
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post #13 of 33
Quote:
Originally Posted by guyladouche View Post
RAID 0+1 won't give you extra performance since you'd be limited to the speed of a single HD (the HD that's going to be recording the mirrored data from the two striped drives). I'd say if you have the cash for 4 HD's, definitely go with RAID5--gives you the extra performance plus the parity. But just keep in mind--just because you are mirroring drives, doesn't guarantee a backup--I had a computer with a RAID 5 array, the computer took a power surge, data was corrupted on the main striped drives, and the data was mirrored onto the two secondary drives--so a lot of my data was lost despite the parity... Always back up your data to a separate physical drive (or DVD)...
What? 4xRAID0+1 gives you the performance close to that of 2xRAID0. RAID5 does not give you much performance since the parity calculation adds a lot of overhead. I highly recommend you do not use RAID5 unless you have a hardware controller. Check reviews or benchmarks (there's one in this month's MaximumPC).

Quote:
Originally Posted by poohball View Post
yes...technically you are right on 2)
but is just hard to expect when it will die, thats why I excluded it....
and is really hard to tell how many died after warranty because people don't return it.
I would have to guess enough die since the warranty is based on binning. Companies sell identical HDs with 3 and 5 year warranties. The only reason for the difference would be MTBF for the batch. It does not benefit a company selling 5yr quality HDs with 3yr warranties (less sales). It does not benefit the companying selling 3yr quality HDs with 5yr warranties (more RMAs).


BTW, there are two types of hardware RAID: onboard or off-loading. Onboard is much better since the controller has its own dedicated CPU and RAM. RAID5 needs onboard processing due to the overhead.
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post #14 of 33
"I would have to guess enough die since the warranty is based on binning. Companies sell identical HDs with 3 and 5 year warranties. The only reason for the difference would be MTBF for the batch. It does not benefit a company selling 5yr quality HDs with 3yr warranties (less sales). It does not benefit the companying selling 3yr quality HDs with 5yr warranties (more RMAs)."

There is no such thing as 3yrs 5yrs quality.
They are the same, the reason they give you 5yrs warranty is becuase it doesn't cost the manufacture much at all and it will sell better. They all the same, thats why you see Seagate give you 5yrs on the regular version.

Now if your 5yrs is referring to RE or NS drive from Seagate and WD, they are selling higher because they been through a longer burn in process and statistic shows that those dirves are less failiure rate. and yet they are the same drive.

Anyway, the bubble theory will always correct because HDD dies eventually.
Just from what we can see from statitic, the highest failure rate withint 3yrs or 5yrs will be at the first year.
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post #15 of 33
Quote:
Originally Posted by poohball View Post
There is no such thing as 3yrs 5yrs quality.
They are the same, the reason they give you 5yrs warranty is becuase it doesn't cost the manufacture much at all and it will sell better. They all the same, thats why you see Seagate give you 5yrs on the regular version.
It does cost more on RMAs if there is a 5 year warranty on drives with a 3yr MTBF.

Quote:
Originally Posted by poohball View Post
Now if your 5yrs is referring to RE or NS drive from Seagate and WD, they are selling higher because they been through a longer burn in process and statistic shows that those dirves are less failiure rate. and yet they are the same drive.
How is that not binning?

Quote:
Originally Posted by poohball View Post
Anyway, the bubble theory will always correct because HDD dies eventually.
Just from what we can see from statitic, the highest failure rate withint 3yrs or 5yrs will be at the first year.
What statistics? Look up Bathtub Curve.
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post #16 of 33
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dman View Post
0+1 uses 4 drives, 2 stripped, 2 mirroring. Raid 5 requires at least 3 drives.
Dammit, my bad--I need to remember to have coffee before posting...don't know WHAT I was thinking...
    
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post #17 of 33
Quote:
Originally Posted by DuckieHo View Post
It does cost more on RMAs if there is a 5 year warranty on drives with a 3yr MTBF.

I already said...it cost more, but not much. because of the chances of failure thats why the additional cost are minimal and thats why they give 5yrs warranty to make it looks more apeal to enduser.


How is that not binning?

because your concept is wrong and have no ideal how that works.


What statistics? Look up Bathtub Curve.
bathtub curve theory is always right simply becaues eventually they die and is just a matter of when. So failure rate is high on "end of life span" is always corret. BUT....when is the "end of life span"?

what you were saying was "2) End of life (shortly outside the warranty period)
"
and thats the biggest flaw, because you are assuming. I can guarantee you that most of them does not die shortly outside the warranty period.

Statistic are directly from manufacture plus our database generated through 400,000-500,000 HDD usage per quarter.
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post #18 of 33
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bakes View Post
There are a few incorrect statements in that. RAID 5 is hardware, unless you are using windows server operating systems. All the parity calculations are done by the southbridge.

RAID 10/0+1 is as fast, if not faster than RAID 0, as all the drives can be read from simultaneously.

It is not a backup. A backup is where you save important files onto a seperate device. A backup is safe if a rootkit kills your hard drives. Not so for a raid 5/0+1 array. That is called redundancy. If a hard disk fails, the computer will still work, until you replace the hard drive.


My suggestion is that you go with raid 5.
Raid 5 has read speeds very similar to raid 0, and the only problem is that it has to calculate parity, so has slower write speeds.

Video editing and gaming do not require high write speeds, and gaming especially is dependent on read speeds. RAID 5 will generally give better read speeds than raid 0+1 with 4 disks, although write speeds will be slower.
In conclusion, I think that you should go with RAID 5. you will have slightly higher read speeds, and much more storage, although you do pay a write penalty for this. 0+1 is for 'crazy but cool', 5 is much better.
Chozart, one of the mods here actually did a comparison using his onboard raid on his motherboard a year ago. The Raid 5 on the motherboards is mostly software based (which I mean it uses your cpu to do calulations, like a software dialup modem) resulting in the ultra fast write rates of 15MB/s. If you want to use raid 5 and not take a huge performance hit you need one of the dedicated PCI-E or PCI-X cards, with an on board raid processor.
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post #19 of 33
Quote:
Originally Posted by poohball View Post
bathtub curve theory is always right simply becaues eventually they die and is just a matter of when. So failure rate is high on "end of life span" is always corret. BUT....when is the "end of life span"?

what you were saying was "2) End of life (shortly outside the warranty period)
"
and thats the biggest flaw, because you are assuming. I can guarantee you that most of them does not die shortly outside the warranty period.

Statistic are directly from manufacture plus our database generated through 400,000-500,000 HDD usage per quarter.
The warranty period (and binning) is based on the MTBF. This is based on continous use of the drive. It is safe to say if you using 1000 hard drives non-stop and they have warranty of 3 years, you will begin to see increasing number of errors by the 4-5th year. Why? Because hard drives are designed by engineers. The engineers works with cost constraints (and why all take at least a few economics courses). By nature, they must build everything "good enough with a bit of leeway just in case". Why would they use a 3 year warranty as a selling point if the hard drive was design to last say 8 years? That extra build quality is a waste of money in resources and a waste of money in terms of marketing.

BTW, the IBM maintained enterprise SAN at my work has had 4 hard drive failures in the last year.

If you want to use manufactor's failure rates as a guide... read this first: http://www.pcworld.com/article/id,129558/article.html
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post #20 of 33
Thread Starter 
Very informative, I already have the drives , awaiting on purchasing the motherboard and so tempted to purchased the e8400 today....
Anyway, I will setup using the RAID 5 configuration and see how it goes.
Thanks for the discussions

Rep+ all the way around!

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