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[ExtremeTech] How to Fix PC Gaming Once and for All - Page 4

post #31 of 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by Halo2Vista View Post
i personally think game developers need to cut the crap and actually make a good storyline, dialogue, and gameplay. rather than ooooooo!! look at the all the stupid useless features we packed into one game.
To add to that, they need to stop making the ultimate consumer be the "beta tester" for their product.
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post #32 of 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by Licht View Post
More then anything the article's bashing of Intel integrated graphics is the most important. That is the single largest issue PC gaming has, Intel killed it : literally. People either seam to think any PC can game like a beast or think it costs thousands to build/upgrade a rig up to the code. Both are deadly lines of thought. Education may be the key here.
No, it is extremely unfair to bash Intel for this. The fact is that the overwhelming majority of PCs sold are never going to be used for gaming. Cheap integrated graphics make hella sense in those cases.

Instead, blame must fall on the PC makers if they do not make clear to their customers the capabilities of a specific PC. Obviously, a serious gaming PC requires a separate card...find me a single ad that makes that clear to an Average Joe Clueless Shopper.

And to some degree, blame the game developers for making games like Crysis that actually require $500+ video cards to play well. Come on...that's the price of an X360, a year of Live, and a couple of games. It's hard to argue that developers should not push the limits of the hardware; but if PC gamers want their hobby to be taken seriously, the barrier to entry for the "hot new games" cannot be a $2000 PC when arguably "hotter" games (like GTA4) can be had on a console for a miserly $350-$400 hardware investment.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bowman View Post
Spare me. Anyone who buys a console is directly contributing to the companies who wish to kill off PC gaming or turn every PC game into a pay-to-play fare they can milk to fund their console businesses.
Blah, blah, blah, nonsense, nonsense, nonsense. Never mind the fact that widespread console gaming predates widespread computer gaming by many years. Or that x86 "PC gaming" was dominated by other computer platform gaming for years. No, historical facts are irrelevant...console gamers just want to kill off PC gaming.

Death to the fanboys of any platform. Long live the real gamers who care about the games more than the hardware they run on.
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post #33 of 50
I don't think there's any immediate concern. I mean, there are so many great PC games already out there (and being made), that there's no way I'd even get a chance to play them all (or buy them all).
    
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post #34 of 50
I couldn't agree more about the anti-piracy measures. It's going to get cracked soon or later. It's nothing more than an inconvienience for the people who actually buy the game.
post #35 of 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by VulcanDragon View Post
No, it is extremely unfair to bash Intel for this. The fact is that the overwhelming majority of PCs sold are never going to be used for gaming. Cheap integrated graphics make hella sense in those cases.
Not necessarily, when their integrated graphics is so poor it cannot run Vista tot he point Microsoft gets into lawsuits over it theres a problem. A better design of the integrated GPU itself can be used to increase power, for example AMD's 780G is a great integrated chip. I would think it doesn't cost much more if any money to make over the Intel integrated GPU (the chip manufacturing cost itself not the entirety of the board.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by VulcanDragon View Post
Instead, blame must fall on the PC makers if they do not make clear to their customers the capabilities of a specific PC. Obviously, a serious gaming PC requires a separate card...find me a single ad that makes that clear to an Average Joe Clueless Shopper.
I do agree, before i built my first custom rig i looked into Dell. I saw that they were advertising a Geforce 7200 LE as "extreme gaming."

Quote:
Originally Posted by VulcanDragon View Post
And to some degree, blame the game developers for making games like Crysis that actually require $500+ video cards to play well. Come on...that's the price of an X360, a year of Live, and a couple of games. It's hard to argue that developers should not push the limits of the hardware; but if PC gamers want their hobby to be taken seriously, the barrier to entry for the "hot new games" cannot be a $2000 PC when arguably "hotter" games (like GTA4) can be had on a console for a miserly $350-$400 hardware investment.
As a programmer myself, with experience in games, i must say you couldn't be more right. Look at a game like Assassin's Creed. Although at first glance the optimization looks poor, look at it verses other games (like Crysis) and its amazingly well done. For how good it looks that is.
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post #36 of 50
Did y'all see some of the other articles listed, like the interview with Alex St. John. directX creator? He said several things:

1)
Quote:
First, Vista blows. DirectX came with it.
2)
Quote:
"When we created DirectX, there's a reason it's call DirectX. It was direct access to hardware acceleration to the developer with very little abstraction and operating system nonsense in the way. So DirectX was meant to be very fast and low-level, and push all the OS bloat out of the way. Over the years that's been forgotten, so each subsequent generation of DirectX has had more value added from Microsoft, which makes the API more complex, more bloated, harder to understand, and so forth."
3)
Quote:
"Those techniques produce extraordinary realism. In order to achieve real-time rendering, modern graphics chips make a lot of compromises. They fake 3D. They fake the physics and light very aggressively. And so modern 3D chips are not so much real-time 3D simulators of light, as much as they are a really rich, complex bag of tricks for producing realistic-looking 3D without actually doing all the calculation.

We've reached a point where it's pretty hard to get better without changing the way we do the rendering. And to illustrate the point, if you look at a modern game, let's say they are really fantastic artists. You have a problem when an eyeball looks at a 3D character that looks perfectly real, and they act woodenly.

ET: True, right.

ASJ: They don't move properly; their motions are all limited to rails, they don't collide with the environment naturally. Making the pictures look better fails when the physics and the interactivity with the environment isn't realistic as well. "
4)
Quote:
And so, what you see, is one of the reasons that games that have 40 million dollar budgets, wheras are 80 percent of the cost of the game is art now, and the art replaces, or fakes, the absence of good 3D or realistic 3D physics. Because instead of having a realistic interaction with the [game] world, what I do instead is create a lot more animations, for every possible scenario in the game….
5)
Quote:
So it is clear that PC gaming absolutely killed [the market] in terms of revenue, killed it in terms of consumer usage—the average console gamer, according to Powers Associates, spends more time playing PC games than console games.
6)
Quote:
ET: How is this Microsoft and Intel's fault?

ASJ: Two problems. Two really simple ones. The first one is that, from many points of view, Microsoft and Intel come from an enterprise background. They're enterprise-centric. So in many respects the consumer market, from their point of view, is an after market for stuff really designed for the enterprise. And the consequence of that is in many cases subtle but important. Because what it means is that game and media support and keeping the operating system out of the way is secondary to, in many cases, silly security infrastructure and a lot of useless OS junk that impedes the real-time performance of games unnecessarily.

The second thing, in Intel's case is, they ship the cheapest, crappiest graphics chip they can as the commodity component—they push the OEMs to do that, because really what they want to do is sell that big Intel chip, the processor, if they can, because that's really where their core expertise is; from an enterprise perspective, GPU is kind of an afterthought.
http://www.extremetech.com/article2/...2277507,00.asp


He said a whole lot more, but these were my favorites. Bring on real time ray tracing!
post #37 of 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by gex80 View Post
then go buy the game on the console. if you can't beat them then join them.
Then i would have to buy console and all that rubbish lol
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post #38 of 50
Quote:
The second thing, in Intel's case is, they ship the cheapest, crappiest graphics chip they can as the commodity component—they push the OEMs to do that, because really what they want to do is sell that big Intel chip, the processor, if they can, because that's really where their core expertise is; from an enterprise perspective, GPU is kind of an afterthought.
This will change now that Intel is developing Larrabee which they'll in all likelihood base their integrated graphics on. It's still a fair bit off but I don't think it'll be too late.
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post #39 of 50
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by bowman View Post
This will change now that Intel is developing Larrabee which they'll in all likelihood base their integrated graphics on. It's still a fair bit off but I don't think it'll be too late.
The integrated graphics will still be weak, so it solves nothing.
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post #40 of 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by bowman View Post
This will change now that Intel is developing Larrabee which they'll in all likelihood base their integrated graphics on. It's still a fair bit off but I don't think it'll be too late.
But Intel is still treating larabee as an enterprise part, or even worse, a marketing gimmick like hyper-threading. I'm hearing lots about larrabee's potential, but I'm not hearing about anything actually being written for it, and Intel is even setting it up for rasterization which the big devs will take to mean that they are off the hook to innovate.

No. I'm not an Intel fan, but were I them I would be courting every major developer that I could find. That thing would ship with "Larrabee Edition" copies of Crysis, Far Cry 2, HL2:Ep3, etc. - kinda like the good old Voodoo days. The consumer world would have killer ray-traced apps right out of the box. With any luck AMD and Nvidia are looking, laughing, and doing exactly what I've just described.

Intel doesn't work that way. They always see themselves as the decision makers for the computing world, the standard that all others are to conform too. And aside from x86 architecture, is there any standard that they've set that the rest of the computing world has adopted?
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