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post #41 of 66
Quote:
Originally Posted by rx7speed View Post
well I also swear I saw a story here some time ago also that talked about heat spreaders and how they acted more as an insulator then a heat sink also.
This is why I love my OCZ sticks. Yes, they have a heat spreader but it's an open design so it adds additional heat conductive surface area but doesn't allow warm air to be trapped in between the PCB and the metal of the heat spreader itself.

Observe...



Yes, you can see the IC's but what you're seeing is thermal tape to keep the heat spreaders attached. The area in between the IC's is open and able to come in contact with air directly.



These puppies are pretty much trap the air between the heat spreader and the PCB meaning it needs that much extra cooling whether by low case temperatures or by active cooling in order to get the job done at higher volts.

It remains to be seen whether this style of heat spreader or no heat spreader with active cooling directly affects memory's overclocking ability I do believe it speaks volumes about longevity. With 2.2v+ pumping through my sticks I can easily get them from 800mhz to 1066 at 5-5-5-15 2t. Yes, there are other variables such as the maximum voltage the IC's can handle but I've touch tested my sticks after an overnight test and they weren't even warm to the touch.

While I know my post is getting off topic somewhat there was someone on here that posted a thread about their generic cheap-o memory that they took from 667mhz to 1000mhz. No heat spreader, no fancy D9 chips...just good ol' fashioned luck of the draw and fine tuning.

Oh, and for those who say that generic memory has a higher failure rate I say you're full of it. Why do you think Samsung and other OEM memory manufacturers are the largest volume memory dealers in the world? Because their stuff sucks and fails more often? No, it's because it does what it's supposed to do.

I'd easily pick up another 2GB of Samsung if I were doing a budget build because they were problem free.
<chozart edit>
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post #42 of 66
I don't like heatspreaders. They indeed do isolate... I think there is a Tomshardware article about it. The OCZ design seems an exception though.

I currently have 4GB cheapo stuff, and it runs great...also, tons cooler than my previous Ballistix.

For the record, I did RMA five kits of expensive RAM in total (4 Ballistix, 1 G.Skill HZ).

I am pretty definately sticking with the cheaper stuff, or anything without heatspreaders. And in case RAM fails, heck, I got another kit laying around... easy to get a spare kit at those prices
    
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post #43 of 66
Why pay more?
(A rational response- not "tossing out troll-bait)
The better quality memory is worth the money because it is simply better quality memory with better quality manufacturing: (for the most part- some bad sticks still do get through quality control- regardless of brand)- and most higher quality memory is also offered in higher rated speed kits:
Luck at getting a decent OC -vs- buying a kit that is guaranteed to do that speed.

The quality of the Silicon is better; the screening is better during etching; the resulting IC's are better binned, and the final modules are generally hand selected and tested to a higher frequency; ergo, The manufacturer will guarantee the kit to run at the higher "stock" frequency. (Be careful not to confuse "stock" with Factory OverClocked!)

To clarify a little further:
Th OP (Paraphrased)
Quote:
Originally Posted by C-bro View Post
Kingmax Mars 2x1GB
DDR2-1066 stock

Compare that to what was in their place before:
G.Skill HZ 2x1GB (Micron D9)
DDR2-800 ran at DDR2-1066

Is there any reasonable explanation why someone should buy the quality G.Skill sticks over the bargain bin crap stuff that can seemingly keep up just as well.I was benchmarking and stress testing all day and I just can't wrap my mind around the substantial difference in price. Performance is the same, both have lifetime warranties, and the Kingmax even do it at substantially lower voltage, so I can't see where the price justification comes from.
So, it's Very lucky to get a "stock" (read as "cheap") 800 MHz kit to run at 1066, as opposed to a kit that has been factory overclocked and guaranteed by the manufacturer to run at 1066 MHz (Still not "stock")!

While we're at it and discussing this (and the OP (and others) did bring up G.Skills ), let's sidetrack and take a look at the three popular G.Skill kit's that everybody seems to get confused over:
G.SKILL 4GB (2 x 2GB) DDR2 800 (PC2 6400) F2-6400CL5D-4GBPQ ($76.99)
G.SKILL 4GB (2 x 2GB) DDR2 1000 (PC2 8000) F2-8000CL5D-4GBPQ ($89.99)
G.SKILL 4GB (2 x 2GB) DDR2 800 (PC2 6400) F2-6400CL4D-4GBPK ($104.99)

G.Skill's naming convention Is (P)erformance (K)ing trumps (P)erformance (Q)ueen (Quality of Silicon, PCB, etc.)
(and obviously Cas Level 4 is better than CL 5. )

So the PKs are better binned than the equivalent PQs
DDR2 800 PK > DDR2 800 PQ Right?! Yep, Sorted!

What about the 1000MHz PQ's vs the 800MHz PK's??
We know PK tops PQ, but, 1000MHz beats 800MHz Right?!

and yet 800MHz CL4 loosened to CL5 would probably get you to 1000MHz !
So that would be 800MHz PK's OC'd to 1000MHz (Still PK) -vs- 1000MHz ("stock"/"Factory OC'd) PQ's

We Have ourselves A conundrum!

*Official* Response from G.Skill:
Quote:
The 800 PK's are different (Better) IC's than the 800 PQ's, the 800PK's are equivalent to the 1000PQ's; ..."However, the 1000PQ's have been tested, binned, and hand selected"...
"...They are guaranteed to run at the higher speed.
So, You could OC the 800PK's yourself for Maybe a set of 1000MHz PK's OR purchase the 1000PQ's and be guaranteed 1000MHz (albeit on PQ's)
*Imagined last October* "If they only made 1000MHz CL4 PK's"*
I asked them Again; "What about the difference between 800PK and 1000PQ?" (Emphasis on Quality aspect not speed)
"They are Same PCB for these two set" (sic) ..."However, the 1000's are tested, binned, and hand selected....."

*Imagined last October* "If they only made 1000MHz CL4 PK's"*
Now they Do!(Hint1066MHz PK's)

Phew, now that's cleared up Again!
Back to the OP's follow up clarification:
Quote:
Originally Posted by C-bro View Post
You get what I'm saying. For the others, to make my original post a bit more clear, is there an advantage to buying quality RAM and overclocking it to a higher speed (ie. 800 oced to 1066), or just buying the cheaper stuff that is the higher speed to begin with (1066 stock).
There is no such thing as "stock 1066" memory! it is ALL Factory Overclocked.
So, from the "Truth in Advertising" perspective:
-800MHz "Factory OC'd to 1066" is the "real deal" and any company that sells their memory as 1066 "stock" is "telling you porkies".

So, we buy the 800MHz set and pray to the almighty RAMa that we can get them to 1000MHz!
Maybe we can, Maybe Not!, Maybe they'll hit 1000 and even go a little further! )
or, we buy the 1000's and know that they will do 1000MHz "stock"! -as the factory has previously tested this "Stock 800MHz" kit to be of a higher quality and capable of running at a stable 1000MHz "Factory Overclock"
-and I'm sure they will be just as likely to go that bit further over their tested parameters, as the original "lower quality" 800's were to hit 1000MHz.

As far as your Kit, you might have found a rare gem but, I'd be wary, the quality of components (Not just the Silicon; also, the FBGA solder, the landings, the PCB etc.) Might not be up to scratch.

Please, have a read through these: (I would recommend bookmarking and pacing yourselves- they're quite "Ooh- no more, no more, my brain hurts") (Mine did )
The one most pertinent to this thread is Part 2, but, they should all be "required reading"!
Sectets of PC Memory Part 1 -The basics
Secrets of PC Memory Part 2 -DDR Form Factors
Secrets Of PC Memory Part 3 - Memory Generational Differences
There is also a Secrets of PC Memory Part 4 -The Next Gen. (DDR3)


Cheers to ALL!

[edit] seems like I missed quite the little argy-bargy while I was culling research links for you guys!
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post #44 of 66
DDR2 1066 is actually a STANDARD speed, and thus not 'factory overclocked'.

Here is the Jedec documentation (warning: 56k)

http://www.jedec.org/download/search/JESD208.pdf
    
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post #45 of 66
great info SpcCdr!
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post #46 of 66
Get these, they will overclock the same, if not better than the G.Skills for a third of the price.

http://www.tankguys.com/product_info...4aa1222445e4db

No heatspreaders =]

(Damn, they're are backorder now)
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post #47 of 66
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chozart View Post
DDR2 1066 is actually a STANDARD speed, and thus not 'factory overclocked'.

Here is the Jedec documentation (warning: 56k)

http://www.jedec.org/download/search/JESD208.pdf
Yep, I'll agree that it has finally been "standardized" by Jedec but, it is still good ol' OC'd "standard 400MHz".
Secrets of Memory Part 2- Page 8 -Fabrication
Quote:
In May 2007, Micron Technology announced the availability of DDR2 and DDR3 DRAM chips using the 78-nanometre process. With this new fabrication process, Micron was able to increase the data frequency to 1,066MHz while keeping the operational voltage at the common 1.8v. This is a significant achievement because it makes the DDR2 1,066MHz memory highly compatible with all motherboards by operating at JEDEC approved DDR2 voltage standard
The difference is that due to the newer process (and other advances) Jedec has recognized that the "core frequency" can now exceed the old "Officially Supported" "Stock" max of 400MHz and can "Officially" go up to 533MHz. While still being "Officially compatible" (That's why the newer Intel and AM2+ boards see 1066 as a "stock" speed- cuz jedec finally A-OK'd it)
See page 51 of Jedec Doc.
Quote:
fCK,max: Maximum frequency supported by the DRAM (1/tCK(avg),min = 533 MHz)
So now we have "Officially Supported" Overclocked Silicon!
(until they change the "Base" core frequency. (Which isn't supposed to happen until at least 2011-2012 when they all switch to 26nM using EUV. Masking)

(Thanks for the Jedec link) +Cookies 4U
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post #48 of 66
Why pay more you say? I don't pay more. I buy the cheap stuff xD

I'd imagine people would want the premium stuff for overclocking and heat spreader looks
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post #49 of 66
Get whatever you can afford. I havenot read thru all the post's but Ill jsut throw out my opinion.

In some cases a few ram companies will provide you with 6 or 8 layer pcb's (cellshock,team,....) which allow for less electrical "noise". This can allow them to handle higher voltages without burning out right away (the chips on them will still fry eventually).

Other then that the "quality" of the actual ram chips can very but if they are binned for 1066 on value ram then they are still pretty good chips regardless if they are factory oced or not.

I can assure you that crucial will do as much testing on the ballistics for the small percentage of gamers or for there value stuff that gets slapped in thousands of oem builds. I mean which would you care more about failing.

Saying that you would buy stuff for the falshy heat spreaders or colors is pretty darn lame (IMO). I mean look at "before" and his ocing. In some of his older stuff he used wintec ram that had D9GKX in it by the way to get some seriouse oc's yet you never heard anyone touting the wintec ram. They were freaking out about any other company that had D9GKX in it but wintec wasnt as popular apparently or as flashy.
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post #50 of 66
SpcCdr if a company is selling ram at 1066mhz then by all means the ram should support and run at that speed. to do so otherwise would be along the lines of advertising their product falsely. So with this Kingmax memory being sold as 1066mhz ram he isn't lucky to have it run at 1066mhz. now granted he might be lucky to run it at 1070mhz I won't deny that but it still should run at it's rated speed.

let me ask you this. If I bought 667mhz ram and it peaked out at 750mhz would the ram be defective? would I be able to get any recourse of this? doubtfull as it ran at it's rated speed plus some. But if I bought ram that was rated at 1066mhz and it only 850mhz then would the ram be deemed defective? I would say so. I'm also sure I would be able to get recourse over something like this if all their product came in at the same situation.

that is what kingmax seems to be doing here is selling 1066mhz ram so why is it luck that it is able to run at it's rated speed?
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