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[Gamasutra] 'One Hundred Hour Games Are On The Way Out' - Page 7

post #61 of 73
Final Fantasy Tactics....now that was a nice long game to complete if you didn't goof up and not finish all the tasks. Easily 100+ hours
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post #62 of 73
Quote:
Originally Posted by slipstream808 View Post
OH WHAT THE CRAP!?!?

C'mon now! I'm NOT a big multi-player kind of guy. I like and LOVE my single player games. Even if I get tired of them I'll put them on hold and make sure to come back to them later. In fact I beat 4 games in once day doing that actually! But still they were all worth it to beat.

I don't want to play a game soley based on graphics. I want a damn STORY! We all know these games that just sucked us in and left us wanting more when it was all over. And it's just lame to make a game 20 hours long because you couldn't come up with a more rewarding gameplay or longer-lasting story. Put some damn effort into it!

Sweet frag-titty! You want something that makes money then put something out there that DESERVES IT.

I just also wanna say that almost ALL of the multi player out there lacks any sort of story line. And that's part of the reason I don't do much of it.
BIOSHOCK and SUPREME COMMANDER come to mind skirmishes are ok but I still like a good story.
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post #63 of 73
Quote:
Originally Posted by lattyware View Post
I for one like episodes, they mean you wait less, and I'm impatient, so it works for me.
Quote:
Originally Posted by lattyware View Post
The episodes take the same time to make as a full game was, they don't magically take longer to make because they are episodic.
Aren't you contradicting yourself here? First you say that episodes mean you have to wait less for new content, but your very next post argues that it takes the same time to make an episode as a full game. Only one of those two positions can be true, they are basically opposite.

I am on board with the promise of episodic content, which definitely is that shorter episodes mean more frequently released, if shorter, content. But that has not panned out yet, for the most part. The Sam and Max games did a good job, but HL2 is not delivering on the promise.

And yes, it very much should take less time to create an episode as it does to create a full game. For one, the designers aren't learning a whole new game engine; they should already be pretty good with the tools at hand, so no (or less) up-front learning curve. And second, it doesn't take a mathematical proof to show that developing five hours of content takes less time and/or resources than creating 15 hours of content, quality assumed to be held equal.

Now one might argue that if it took them three years to make a 15-hour HL2 experience, expecting 12-month iterations to crank out 5-hour episodes makes perfect sense. And I won't argue that point, I'm just saying that 12-month cycle times are not what people expected when the whole episodic content idea was first introduced.
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post #64 of 73
Quote:
Originally Posted by XenoRad View Post
Yes, it did take Valve 6 years to make HL2 (which was a lot of time), but they had to plan the story, make the engine, make the models, make the animations, make the textures, the sounds etc.
For Episodes 1 and 2 most of those things where already done.
The also certainly didn't have the same level of resources as they did with HL2. With HL2 expectations were huge, they wanted it to not only be perfect, but futureproof. I could run HL2 on my old eMachines with its Intel integrated graphics and 256mb ram, and I'm not talking about the passable GMA900 series, but the 800 series, which was just abysmal. I got about the same framerate as I did with Tibia, which is a 2D GAME! They probably had 90% of their staff working on HL2 up until it's release. For the Episodic content they probably have less than 20%. Its probably just a core of 4 of 5 people along with the voice actors and graphic designers.


Episodic content is a great idea, although so far it's been poorly executed. The best example I can think of of episodic content would be WoW. They continually release new patches that add things to the game, new quests, new items, new armor, new dungeons etc... while still building up to a major release. While this might not work as well as it does in MMOs, I think more emphasis should be put on these kinds of updates. I would be perfectly happy with a 5 hour game provided they lowered the price and continued to release updates on it. This wouldn't work for larger scale games like Halo or MGS but something like CoD4 or Oblivion would be nice.
    
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post #65 of 73
Quote:
Originally Posted by lattyware View Post
Half Life 1 is a true long game, 14 hours, and it gripped me the whole time.
You ARE joking, right? 14 hours is like a fart in the wind. Under 25 hours is very short. 25 hours and over is short. 50 and up is average. 75 is long, and over 100 is epic.

All I'm saying is bring on the average games. RPG's can be epics though. Go play some Baldur's Gate my man. THAT is a game. Epic in length but WORTH the money.

Granted we don't all play at the same rates but I am average in gameplay length.
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post #66 of 73
14 hour game...lol
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post #67 of 73
Quote:
Originally Posted by slipstream808 View Post
You ARE joking, right? 14 hours is like a fart in the wind. Under 25 hours is very short. 25 hours and over is short. 50 and up is average. 75 is long, and over 100 is epic.

All I'm saying is bring on the average games. RPG's can be epics though. Go play some Baldur's Gate my man. THAT is a game. Epic in length but WORTH the money.

Granted we don't all play at the same rates but I am average in gameplay length.
I do say 'for an FPS' - there are not many (I can't name one) FPSes that are longer than 14 hours. Maybe that is me being ignorant.

Quote:
Originally Posted by VulcanDragon View Post
Aren't you contradicting yourself here? First you say that episodes mean you have to wait less for new content, but your very next post argues that it takes the same time to make an episode as a full game. Only one of those two positions can be true, they are basically opposite.

I am on board with the promise of episodic content, which definitely is that shorter episodes mean more frequently released, if shorter, content. But that has not panned out yet, for the most part. The Sam and Max games did a good job, but HL2 is not delivering on the promise.

And yes, it very much should take less time to create an episode as it does to create a full game. For one, the designers aren't learning a whole new game engine; they should already be pretty good with the tools at hand, so no (or less) up-front learning curve. And second, it doesn't take a mathematical proof to show that developing five hours of content takes less time and/or resources than creating 15 hours of content, quality assumed to be held equal.

Now one might argue that if it took them three years to make a 15-hour HL2 experience, expecting 12-month iterations to crank out 5-hour episodes makes perfect sense. And I won't argue that point, I'm just saying that 12-month cycle times are not what people expected when the whole episodic content idea was first introduced.
No, I'm the two work together. I said the episodes together take the same amount of time as the full game. Let me explain.

If we presume HL3 would have been HL2:E1, E2 and E3 stitched together, as one would, then what I am saying is that it would take them the same amount of time to make all three and release them as one game as it would to make them and release them separately, over the timespan. The latter way we get the content faster, as we don't have to wait for the latter parts to play the first parts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by XenoRad View Post
I don't like it that you aren't paying attention to what I'm saying.

Disregard Steam for a minute. Not all games are sold on Steam, not everybody buys from Steam, not all Episodic games will be sold on Steam...

Also you can't say I have nothing to back up my claim that episodic gaming would be cheaper when I just said that it's a general economic rule that the less you buy of something the more you pay per piece. That's how business works.

Yes, it did take Valve 6 years to make HL2 (which was a lot of time), but they had to plan the story, make the engine, make the models, make the animations, make the textures, the sounds etc.
For Episodes 1 and 2 most of those things where already done.
I'm not paying attention to what you are saying, because you are doing the same to me. I said that Steam made episodic gaming possible - that was my criterion. I'm saying unless content management systems are used, Episodic gaming will not become mainstream. But I believe content management systems and episodic gaming will.

Yes, what you said is true, but that only applies due to economies of scale, and in game development, economies of scale don't really apply. (Or at least, not to that extent). If companies want to succeed with episodic gaming, they will have to release at reasonable prices.

And yes, you are right, HL1->HL2 was a bigger transition. But what I am saying is that if valve had made Half Life 3, it would be the episodes stitched together, in effect. So it would have taken the exact same amount of time, just without the releases.
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post #68 of 73
I'll give that FPS's are shorter games. But I do feel that a 14 hour FPS is still short.
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post #69 of 73
Quote:
Originally Posted by slipstream808 View Post
I'll give that FPS's are shorter games. But I do feel that a 14 hour FPS is still short.
I think you're trying to apply RPG standards of how long a game should be to a FPS. FPS's have no side quests and are mostly linear with no side stories. They rack up their hours of gameplay in multiplayer. I think a 14 hour game is about average of FPS's right now, whether or not that is because of laziness or people think that's all the time they need to make their game is up to debate.
Edited by Opeth07 - 6/22/08 at 5:34pm
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post #70 of 73
Quote:
Originally Posted by Opeth07 View Post
I think you're trying to apply RPG standards of how long a game should be to a FPS. FPS's have no side quests and are mostly linear with no side stories. They rack up their hours of gameplay in multiplayer. I think a 14 hour game is about average of FPS's right now, whether or not that is because of laziness or people think that's all the time they need to make their game is up to debate.
STALKER is a non linear FPS, but then again it has an open world and quests similar to a RPG. Still the point remains that you can make any game longer provided you give your player freedom to move and choices to make.

A 14 hour FPS is not average right now. I'd say most take under 10 hours to finish and that's a pity.
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