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post #21 of 31
Quote:
Originally Posted by EsaT View Post
Hello, Earth calling...
Air flows naturally from higher pressure toward lower pressure.


Lack of enough intake area/high airflow impedance.
Only intake in Sonata is in front of HDD rack.
Unless it's being impeded, IOW the intake fans are pushing air in faster than the exhaust fans are getting rid of it. This means the actual pressure difference created by the intake fans is lower than it could potentially be with good enough exhaust. Fans don't just create an amount of pressure no matter where they are. In a closed system like a computer case, you need to have equal input and output to get the most out of the fans.

If Earth worked the way you seem to think it does, then having 3 Deltas as intake and a tiny hole as exhaust would create a dangerous amount of pressure out of the hole.
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post #22 of 31
Your duo-orb definatly blows air in every which direction.

My suggestion is that you remove the card-slot cover for the 1 slot below
your graphics card. And make sure that your bottom 120mm fan has a clear path to your card.

that way, all the air going to your GFX card is fresh, and the 120mm will overpower anything the duo-orb sends towards the front of your case.

If you want to get a bit more serious about it.
Just use a piece of cardboard and lay it across the top of your 8800GT to your 120mm fan.
this will create a channel to isolate the hot air coming from your GFX card
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post #23 of 31
Quote:
Originally Posted by Guruboy View Post
Unless it's being impeded, IOW the intake fans are pushing air in faster than the exhaust fans are getting rid of it. This means the actual pressure difference created by the intake fans is lower than it could potentially be with good enough exhaust. Fans don't just create an amount of pressure no matter where they are. In a closed system like a computer case, you need to have equal input and output to get the most out of the fans.
1.
Only one semi-intake fan in this case: (don't see any air tube coming from 5.25" bays or elsewhere to CPU HSF or PSU)
Quote:
Originally Posted by jinja_ninja View Post
And two exhausts, PSU and fan below it.

Those holes next to card slots are question mark, they might provide some fresh air for graphic card but they might also be airflow shortcircuit causing exhaust fan to draw air through them instead of just exhausting air already in case. So blocking that temporarily for seeing does airflow inside case change to better or worse would be sensible.

2.
When talking about fan (unlike in case of free air movement) airflow and pressure aren't directly proportional but inversely proportional.
Generating higher pressure is same as lower airflow so your dream situation of fan generating maximum pressure is same as solid plate in front of fan and air not going anywhere.
Real specs of fans always include graph showing how airflow drops in relation to pressure generated for winning back pressure:
http://www.ystech.com.tw/yensun/imgFile/KM1225-2.pdf
The ironic thing is that fan has to always generate some slight pressure because otherwise air wouldn't move at all.
Also this requirement of slight pressure for being able to push air forward means that if air is already traveling at rate fan could produce that pressure mostly disappears and fan can't give airflow any extra push but just "rolls on downhill/downwind".

Situation is quite similar to serial connection of batteries, with two batteries in series voltage (pressure) pushing current (airflow) doubles meaning same current can be pushed through double resistance but maximum current is still same as that of one battery.
Similarly second fan in series can only increase pressure for overcoming back pressure but not increase maximum airflow capacity.
So best solutions for more airflow is
  • Minimizing impedance of exhaust/intake paths (case is rarely so cramped air wouldn't find low impedance route)
  • Rising number of fans in parallel
  • Increasing RPM of fans

3.
Effective cooling is all about adequate airflow going through right places, not maximizing number of fans crammed into case.
Cooling of Sonata cases actually works well with negative pressure principle after airflow is controlled (did this for neighbour) with exhaust fans drawing air into case from front past HDDs. With side panel open HDDs just heat fast to very hot because soft mounting prevents conductive cooling.
Also huge amount of electric devices and parts use negative pressure cooling with just exhaust fan. Other end of casing has just intake holes and airflow between it and fan is controlled so that it goes past right places.
Working positive pressure cooling is similarly possible but it's much harder/requires much more careful control of airflow because unlike exhausts, intakes are generally far from components needing cooling and airflow can get lost to elsewhere.
It's just that Sonata has been designed as quiet basic case for basic computer, job which it fills well, (except CWT made PSUs of Sonata I and II were time bombs) and not for overclocked/overvolted CPUs and hot graphic cards.


Quote:
Originally Posted by phillipjos View Post
This is a "Quote" from another Fourum
Air being pushed past a fan actually HEATS it up.
In practise that would be more theoretical than real. Fans themselves produce very little heat/if heat production is big airflow is still bigger meaning rise of airflow T is insignificant. (and couple billion light years better than just passive convective airflow)

Sure heat is in principle movement of particles (in sense hottest place in solar system isn't Sun but Jupiter's magnetosphere which accelerates charged particles to huge energies equal to 300-400 million Kelvin) but speed increase provided by fan is insignificant.

Neither there's enough pressure for compressive heating: Volume/pressure of air parcel and temperature are closely related, rising pressure/compressing air parcel to smaller volume rises temperature and vice versa. (this pressure-temperature relation is what causes fog like condensation often visible in airshows around high performance aircrafts during maneuvers and ring/spherical like expanding clouds in nuclear tests)
post #24 of 31
Quote:
Originally Posted by EsaT View Post
1.
Only one semi-intake fan in this case: (don't see any air tube coming from 5.25" bays or elsewhere to CPU HSF or PSU)
And two exhausts, PSU and fan below it.

Those holes next to card slots are question mark, they might provide some fresh air for graphic card but they might also be airflow shortcircuit causing exhaust fan to draw air through them instead of just exhausting air already in case. So blocking that temporarily for seeing does airflow inside case change to better or worse would be sensible.

2.
When talking about fan (unlike in case of free air movement) airflow and pressure aren't directly proportional but inversely proportional.
Generating higher pressure is same as lower airflow so your dream situation of fan generating maximum pressure is same as solid plate in front of fan and air not going anywhere.
Real specs of fans always include graph showing how airflow drops in relation to pressure generated for winning back pressure:
http://www.ystech.com.tw/yensun/imgFile/KM1225-2.pdf
The ironic thing is that fan has to always generate some slight pressure because otherwise air wouldn't move at all.
Also this requirement of slight pressure for being able to push air forward means that if air is already traveling at rate fan could produce that pressure mostly disappears and fan can't give airflow any extra push but just "rolls on downhill/downwind".

Situation is quite similar to serial connection of batteries, with two batteries in series voltage (pressure) pushing current (airflow) doubles meaning same current can be pushed through double resistance but maximum current is still same as that of one battery.
Similarly second fan in series can only increase pressure for overcoming back pressure but not increase maximum airflow capacity.
So best solutions for more airflow is
  • Minimizing impedance of exhaust/intake paths (case is rarely so cramped air wouldn't find low impedance route)
  • Rising number of fans in parallel
  • Increasing RPM of fans

3.
Effective cooling is all about adequate airflow going through right places, not maximizing number of fans crammed into case.
Cooling of Sonata cases actually works well with negative pressure principle after airflow is controlled (did this for neighbour) with exhaust fans drawing air into case from front past HDDs. With side panel open HDDs just heat fast to very hot because soft mounting prevents conductive cooling.
Also huge amount of electric devices and parts use negative pressure cooling with just exhaust fan. Other end of casing has just intake holes and airflow between it and fan is controlled so that it goes past right places.
Working positive pressure cooling is similarly possible but it's much harder/requires much more careful control of airflow because unlike exhausts, intakes are generally far from components needing cooling and airflow can get lost to elsewhere.
It's just that Sonata has been designed as quiet basic case for basic computer, job which it fills well, (except CWT made PSUs of Sonata I and II were time bombs) and not for overclocked/overvolted CPUs and hot graphic cards.


In practise that would be more theoretical than real. Fans themselves produce very little heat/if heat production is big airflow is still bigger meaning rise of airflow T is insignificant. (and couple billion light years better than just passive convective airflow)

Sure heat is in principle movement of particles (in sense hottest place in solar system isn't Sun but Jupiter's magnetosphere which accelerates charged particles to huge energies equal to 300-400 million Kelvin) but speed increase provided by fan is insignificant.

Neither there's enough pressure for compressive heating: Volume/pressure of air parcel and temperature are closely related, rising pressure/compressing air parcel to smaller volume rises temperature and vice versa. (this pressure-temperature relation is what causes fog like condensation often visible in airshows around high performance aircrafts during maneuvers and ring/spherical like expanding clouds in nuclear tests)
What the heck are you saying in layman's terms.
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post #25 of 31
Thread Starter 
Wow, lots of stuff to read.

I'm really appreciating all your help guys, really do.

I think I need to focus a lot more on exhaust. I'm trying to push too much intake-air into the case, but the exhaust is unable to get rid of it all, hence I'm sure it just hangs around and heats up!

Also, someone mentioned chanelling the air with some cardboard etc, blocking off certain areas to force the air to escape through the correct places. I will give this a go at the weekend as well.

I have recently installed a voltage-reduction cable on my DuOrb as it was way too loud. This has taken it from 12v to 10v. Will this have a positive or negative effect on the airflow? ie. less pressure coming from the DuOrb.
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post #26 of 31
Quote:
Originally Posted by jinja_ninja View Post
I'm trying to push too much intake-air into the case, but the exhaust is unable to get rid of it all, hence I'm sure it just hangs around and heats up!.
I don't think so.....

The same amount of air is comming in the intakes as is going out the exhausts. If it's not, where is it going?

Instead of talking about the size of your fans, you should be looking at their CFM ratings and setting them up to that CFMs in = CFMs out.
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post #27 of 31
Thread Starter 
How about this VGA cooler?

Its a dual-slot design that exhausts out of the case. Might be better than the "air-all-over-the-place" DuOrb.
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post #28 of 31
To be perfectly honest, your reported temperatures (in your original post) don't seem all that abnormal to me. I get similar temperatures even in a big case with a good number of strategically-positioned fans (Silverstone TJ-09B/W).

The key question, though, is whether or not these temperatures are in line with your ambient temperatures. To wit, given ambient temperatures of around 26 degrees C in my bedroom (which is rather cool considering we're starting to experience the joys of summer in Southern California, in a bedroom deprived of air conditioning), my CPU will peak at around 47, 48 degrees at the cores, and the chipset temperatures at around 35 degrees. For the record, the CPU is an Opteron 170 @ 2.8GHz (1.36V VCore) with its IHS removed.

On a much cooler day (say, 20 degrees C ambient temperatures), core temperatures at full CPU load are a steady 41 degrees, and chipset temperatures at around 29 degrees C.

My point is that nobody hardly ever considers ambient temperatures and the huge effect they have on a cooling setup.

Hope this helps!
    
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post #29 of 31
Quote:
Originally Posted by jinja_ninja
I have recently installed a voltage-reduction cable on my DuOrb as it was way too loud. This has taken it from 12v to 10v. Will this have a positive or negative effect on the airflow? ie. less pressure coming from the DuOrb.

How about this VGA cooler?
Its a dual-slot design that exhausts out of the case. Might be better than the "air-all-over-the-place" DuOrb.
1. Naturally that rises GPU temperature but it doesn't change amount of airflow though case because it isn't exhaust or intake fan.

2.
Definitely much better because it lessens amount of heat left inside case (lowering case temperature and heat load on components above it) and creates also more airflow through case.

Also try blocking those holes next to card slots for seeing does that change temperatures to better or worse. (very easy and fast to test with some paper and tape)

Quote:
Originally Posted by phillipjos View Post
What the heck are you saying in layman's terms.
To which part you're referring?
(you don't want novel long answer)
Quote:
Originally Posted by billbartuska View Post
The same amount of air is comming in the intakes as is going out the exhausts. If it's not, where is it going?
Right on spot.
Natural balancing airflow from higher pressure to lower pressure prevents pressure difference from rising to point where it would cause either "explosion" or "implosion" of case.
Quote:
Originally Posted by txtmstrjoe View Post
My point is that nobody hardly ever considers ambient temperatures and the huge effect they have on a cooling setup.
Yeah, no one would wonder 100C idle temperatures if I took PC to sauna.
post #30 of 31
It depends. If you have bad airflow in the bigger case, temps will be worse. However, if you can get some more/better fans, you'll generally get lower temps.
However, your current case seems fine for you. Just try to get some better fans, hopefully a higher CFM while staying at around the same dB level.
    
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