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Are pre-owned games illegal? - Page 4

post #31 of 62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dralb View Post
Well, you certainly do have the right to ignore laws that you don't agree with, but don't for a second think that doesn't make you a criminal. there are plenty of laws I think are assanine, but I abide by them. if I don't like them, I vote for people that think the way I do and hope that things change.

Also, as I have said, I am against piracy because it is illegal. That is it. I do think it hurts the creators and such, but please stop taking part of one thing and using it to justify the other. Just because used game sales and piracy have ONE thing in common does not mean that they are morally or legally the same.
Sorry, but smoking weed doesn't make me a criminal and I'm about to get offended. I feel very strongly about this subject. As an opinionated person I request we drop it right here.

I beg to differ. I think they are closely interconnected. Money is lost on both sides and the copyright owners don't receive money they're due. That's the base for the arguement against piracy that people don't pay and the copyright owners don't get their money. It's been brought up in that way many times in the other thread and trading games in leads directly to the same result. Here's the important part if people are going to take the higher moral ground and claim they support copyright owns this and that, they must acknoledge that trading in, or buying trade-ins is equally immoral.. Just because it's not illegal, doens't make it morally sound.

Don't get me wrong, though. I'm not excusing piracy. I'm just pointing out the similarity between the two and how it's hilarious tos ee people getting moral over piracy, but not trade ins. They lead to the same thing.

EDIT:

Side note. Morals are something that's individual, also. What you may think is immoral, I find to be completely ok.
Edited by Shin2k35 - 6/27/08 at 2:45pm
    
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post #32 of 62
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shin2k35 View Post
Sorry, but smoking weed doesn't make me a criminal and I'm about to get offended. I feel very strongly about this subject. As an opinionated person I request we drop it right here.

I beg to differ. I think they are closely interconnected. Money is lost on both sides and the copyright owners don't receive money they're due. That's the base for the arguement against piracy that people don't pay and the copyright owners don't get their money. It's been brought up in that way many times in the other thread and trading games in leads directly to the same result. Here's the important part if people are going to take the higher moral ground and claim they support copyright owns this and that, they must acknoledge that trading in, or buying trade-ins is equally immoral.

Don't get me wrong, though. I'm not excusing piracy. I'm just pointing out the similarity between the two and how it's hilarious tos ee people getting moral over piracy, but not trade ins. They lead to the same thing.


sigh, you know, I am really sick of pointing this out and this is the last post: I am against pirating becasue it is illegal. Period. Done.

One is illegal one is not. Based on that difference I have my opinion. Honestly, I am sorry if you are offended, but go back and read my posts. Where did I say I am against piracy exclusively for the money lost? Where did I call you a criminal for smoking pot? Where did I offend you? I think you really need to be open to others opinions and learn to discuss something without repeating the same thing over and over.
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post #33 of 62
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Hundred Gunner View Post
If I own the product, I have the damn right to sell it for whatever reason. Of course we're going to assume that this has been done the right way: the game has been erased from the system, and no copies have been made.

How can they tell me I can't sell my own property?
indeed. If this were the case then you would have to buy the games directly from the creators. They get their money when the retailer pays for the product.
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post #34 of 62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dralb View Post
sigh, you know, I am really sick of pointing this out and this is the last post: I am against pirating becasue it is illegal. Period. Done. I don't know why you have such a hard time understanding this difference. you keep sayiong the same thing over and over and over, but you can't seem to get this.

One is illegal one is not. Based on that difference I have my opinion. Honestly, I am sorry if you are offended, but go back and read my posts. Where did I say I am against piracy exclusively for the money lost? Where did I call you a criminal for smoking pot? Where did I offend you? I think you really need to be open to others opinions and learn to discuss something without repeating the same thing over and over.
There you go getting offensive again and attempting to child me.

Yes, you have consistantly said through the entire debate that you're against piracy because it's illegal. So I've offered the viewpoint, now, that trading games in is potentially illegal and developers/publishers certainly have tried to make it that way. I was offering the comparison because they're very closely related.

You haven't said that you're against piracy simply because of lost money. But you've taken the time to mention it (gah, I think. I'm going out now so I can't go check) and so I've taken the time to mention that trade-ins result in the exact same thing.

I'm not trying to justify piracy and I'm not trying to demonise trading in games. I'm playing devils advocate to the whole piracy debate and offering this side of the tale. I wish people wouldn't act so serious on the internet.

Now, there's a PM coming your way so we can resolve any bad feelings there may be now Can't do with silly confrontations on forums.
    
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post #35 of 62
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vlasov_581 View Post
second one is called piracy and only illegal if you are profiting from it(major no no).....if you are backing up your games that's perfectly fine(it's your responsibility to follow rules and NOT distribute/profit them)......and the reseller could not possibly pocket $180 and i don't even know why you are implying they could(you are only selling it once for $20)
Since bypassing copy protection or DRM is illegal, even making a legal backup can be illegal if the developer so chooses it to be. This creates a situation where it is illegal for you to make a copy you are legally allowed to make. It is both legal, and illegal, at the same time.
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post #36 of 62
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shin2k35 View Post
I beg to differ. I do have the right to choose which laws I do and don't follow. That's liberty for you. Some laws are completely anal and have no leg to stand on. Such as cannabis laws (cannabis can't kill you unless you have a block of it, 1m squared.....fall on your head. Whereas a single night of alcohol can kill you. Alcohol should be illegal) Eitherway, some laws make no sense and I refuse to abide by them.

I think I should be able to sell my videogames to whoever I please, but at the same time it's hilarious to note that trading games in robs developers of potential millions. So, if people were to get all high and mighty over piracy, they ought to do the same with trade-ins. Which they won't. So they ought, instead, to lay off piracy.
You are correct, in that it is your right to choose which laws you abide by, you seem to be confusing freewill with legality. But, as long as those laws are upheld by the courts you also assume the risk involved with breaking said laws and will undoubtedly be found guilty regardless of how you feel.

Trading in games robs the developers of potential millions.
Piracy robs the the developers of potential millions.
Therefore if you hate piracy you should hate Trade ins or just lay off piracy!?!

Sorry, your flawed logic proves absolutely nothing.


-EDIT- That comment was unnecessary, I do understand where you are coming from and can appreciate your argument... /-EDIT-

It only takes 1 pirated copy spread through the various P2P networks to reach an audience that numbers in the millions...

One legally purchased copy of a game will trade hands how many times, 1, 2, 3, maybe 4 times? I know when I buy a trade in game on the cheap I tend to keep it. The trade in can only be enjoyed by a singular entity at any given point in it's life cycle(unless of course someone downloads a nocd crack, mini-image, or something similar but then it's piracy anyway). Where as the pirate copy can be enjoyed by millions simultaneously.

So for the sake of argument every game traded in will end up traded 4 times throughout it's life cylce...

If a game sells 1,000,000 copies, 250,000 of which were traded in 4 times and one copy which was cracked and uploaded to the various p2p networks and eventually downloaded 2,000,000 times(of which only half ever actually play) ->

749,999 copies sold full retail
1,250,000(traded in 4 times -> 5 x 250K) copies sold @ 1/5 retail
1 copy successfully cracked, uploaded and subsequently downloaded by 1million + = priceless(literally)
Edited by MasterKromm - 6/27/08 at 4:01pm
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post #37 of 62
I buy a car. I drive the card for a year. Then I sell the car for 75% of what I paid. Is that illegal? I am making the car manufacturer lose money since the buyer could have bought the same car brand new. For sure, it's illegal to steal a car: I think we can all agree on that.

I buy a game. I play the game for a month and beat it. Then I sell the game for 75% of what I paid (no one is going to pay the full price). Is that illegal? I am making the game producer lose money since the buyer could have bought the same game bramd new. For sure, it's illegal to pirate a game: I think we can all agree on that.

Side note: when you buy a game, you don't own the game. You own the right to play it (according to the EULA). If you would outright BUY the game (and thus have full ownership of the code!), you'd be paying thousands, if not millions of dollars.
    
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post #38 of 62
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MasterKromm View Post
You are correct, in that it is your right to choose which laws you abide by, you seem to be confusing freewill with legality. But, as long as those laws are upheld by the courts you also assume the risk involved with breaking said laws and will undoubtedly be found guilty regardless of how you feel.

Trading in games robs the developers of potential millions.
Piracy robs the the developers of potential millions.
Therefore if you hate piracy you should hate Trade ins or just lay off piracy!?!

Sorry, your flawed logic proves absolutely nothing.


-EDIT- That comment was unnecessary, I do understand where you are coming from and can appreciate your argument... /-EDIT-

It only takes 1 pirated copy spread through the various P2P networks to reach an audience that numbers in the millions...

One legally purchased copy of a game will trade hands how many times, 1, 2, 3, maybe 4 times? I know when I buy a trade in game on the cheap I tend to keep it. The trade in can only be enjoyed by a singular entity at any given point in it's life cycle(unless of course someone downloads a nocd crack, mini-image, or something similar but then it's piracy anyway). Where as the pirate copy can be enjoyed by millions simultaneously.

So for the sake of argument every game traded in will end up traded 4 times throughout it's life cylce...

If a game sells 1,000,000 copies, 250,000 of which were traded in 4 times and one copy which was cracked and uploaded to the various p2p networks and eventually downloaded 2,000,000 times(of which only half ever actually play) ->

749,999 copies sold full retail
1,250,000(traded in 4 times -> 5 x 250K) copies sold @ 1/5 retail
1 copy successfully cracked, uploaded and subsequently downloaded by 1million + = priceless(literally)
That's definately the crunch in my arguement. You can't hide from that fact =D

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chozart View Post
I buy a car. I drive the card for a year. Then I sell the car for 75% of what I paid. Is that illegal? I am making the car manufacturer lose money since the buyer could have bought the same car brand new. For sure, it's illegal to steal a car: I think we can all agree on that.

I buy a game. I play the game for a month and beat it. Then I sell the game for 75% of what I paid (no one is going to pay the full price). Is that illegal? I am making the game producer lose money since the buyer could have bought the same game bramd new. For sure, it's illegal to pirate a game: I think we can all agree on that.

Side note: when you buy a game, you don't own the game. You own the right to play it (according to the EULA). If you would outright BUY the game (and thus have full ownership of the code!), you'd be paying thousands, if not millions of dollars.
It's certainly a confusing position to be in if you were to take it super seriously. I think it comes down to the simple fact that I prefer original copies, for me. But, I'm still willing to pick up a dirty cheap game if I can.

People have been buying and selling games privately and in small businesses for years. It's just when it gets to this scale people start to notice the potential losses.

There's no way in hell they'll be able to pass any laws restricting the trade of video games here, though.
    
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post #39 of 62
Quote:
Originally Posted by MasterKromm View Post
...
749,999 copies sold full retail
1,250,000(traded in 4 times -> 5 x 250K) copies sold @ 1/5 retail
1 copy successfully cracked, uploaded and subsequently downloaded by 1million + = priceless(literally)
I agree. The proliferation of fast internet connections means that a game can be pirated on a scale unlike forms in the past (Think about a guy at a car boot sale, sells maybe 20,30 copies per original disc, versus 1 original disc being downloaded hundreds of thousands of times). The trading in of games has a much smaller impact in denying money to the developer.

It depends where you set your moral line. Sure piracy is illegal and obviously bad for the developers (though the extent of which is arguable). Traded-in games don't generate new revenue for the dev either, so you could take a moral stance and not buy pre-owned.

Take it a bit further and you're looking at buying a new sealed copy for every computer in your setup, though I believe the EULA applies to the consumer, not the hardware, stuff like Securom can make one user potentially require a second copy to install on numerous machines.

Having had a think, traded games are commonly only a fiver or so cheaper than originals, and I'm sure it would be very easy to register a % of that profit with the publishers/devs, to keep it all happy and above board.

OT: I know GAME doesn't take pc games, but I've seen some used ones in Gamestation on sale.
    
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post #40 of 62
This is the most rediculous idea I've seen in a very long time.

If you become a seller of pirated games, you create direct competition for the company's product. You are able to produce unlimited copies of this game for mere pennies, while the developers put many many hours of work and upwards of $500,000 into creating it. Because your investment is so low, you now have the power to control the market price. If you bring the market price of the product down to where the developing company can no longer compete (like where its free on torrent sites), then they will lose tremendous amounts of money - not just the value of the pirated copies themselves, but also the value of the LEGIT copies as well, because they will be forced to reduce prices to compete.

When reselling a used game, you have absolutely no control over market price whatsoever. The supply of games is still limited to the number of copies actually sold by the corporation.

Thats why piracy is such a big deal. Those corporations don't care for the little bit of extra money they would have made on a few games. They just want to maintain control of the market so that it is still profitable to stay in business. Uncontrolled piracy can lead to the destruction of an industry, used sales can not.
Edited by Manyak - 6/28/08 at 1:31am
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