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post #51 of 62
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shin2k35 View Post
Stay on topic please (or at least add something on topic after your comment) @Stargate






Go and read the thread and come back with a proper comment. No-one thinks trading in games should be illegal except devs and publishers.
I wasn't talking to anyone here in particular. It's a anger outburst!
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post #52 of 62
Thread Starter 
Oh right! Soz! (sorry!)
    
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post #53 of 62
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shin2k35 View Post
Stay on topic please (or at least add something on topic after your comment) @Stargate
Whatever. It was related and just happened to use your statement as an example.
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post #54 of 62
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shin2k35 View Post
I don't know why you'd think it's a ridiculous idea unless you didn't give it any thought. A lot of people have picked up on the premise.

A pirate buys the game, takes it home and distributes it. Devs make £30. Hundreds of people can get a copy of the game and the Devs still only make £30

A person buys the same game and a week later trades it in. Devs make £30. The person then trades in that game. The store sells it on for £20. Devs have still made £30, the store has now made £40. Imagine that same game comes back 6-7 times each time making the store £10 profit. The devs have still made only £30 and the store has now made over £100. Many people have paid for the game and yet the devs still only make £30

The idea is simply this: If devs are losing money left right and centre, the blame cannot possibly fall squarely on the shoulders of piracy. Trading in your videogames robs the developer of potential money. They know it.

The only thing that makes trading games more acceptable to person is that 1) Theyre paying money for it so they don't feel like they're getting something for nothing and 2) it's legal. Whereas the main reason people don't agree with piracy is that it hurts the devs, it isn't legal and it seems to annoy people that pirates don't pay for software.

Ignore the fact it isn't legal and we have the facts that it hurts devs and isn't paid for. Trading in would be illegal if Devs could lobby enough support in a court case. So, let's ignore the legality behind piracy and trading in. You have the main difference: the fact that pirates haven't paid.
Let me explain a little better. Lets take Crytek as an example here, using some arbitrary numbers.

- Crytek spends $98,000 in development costs on Crysis.
- Crytek spends $1 per DVD to burn it, label it, box it, and distribute it.
- Crytek charges $50 per copy upon release, so they must sell 2000 copies to start profiting. In addition, they must make at least another $100,000 in profits so that they can afford to create another game, so 4000 copies must be sold in total.
- Pirate buys one copy of the game for ($50) - this is his "development cost".
- Pirate spends $0.25 per DVD to burn it, label it, and distribute it.
- To compete with Crytek, the Pirate charges $5 per copy, so he must sell 11 copies to begin to profit. In addition, he must make at least another $50 in profits so that he can afford to buy their next game and pirate it as well.
- Many Pirates do the same, so now there are more pirated copies of the game on the market than there are legit ones.
- People see the much cheaper price of pirated games, and start buying those.
- Crytek can no longer compete, and must now reduce their price to $5 to match the competitors (Pirates).
- If Crytek sells only the expected 4000 copies they would have needed to, they would only make $20,000, which doesn't even cover the development cost.


With used game sales, there is ABSOLUTELY NO RISK of this happening because the ENTIRE supply is now coming from Crytek. They do not create any sort of direct competition with the developer in this manner. Piracy creates an infinite supply for the market at any level of demand, effectively reducing the value of the product to 0. Used sales still has a limited supply, and since they are based off of the original sales, they retain their own supply curve and do not share one with the original product. This way, the developer can retain control of his prices and profits.

Read up on some basic economics.
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post #55 of 62
This is just common sense.

When you buy a game, you are buying the right to play that game. You are not buying the game (which is the source code) or the CD (well, you are, but that's not the main thing) (which is the distribution medium.

Now, If you want to sell that license, you can do. The trick is this. You own that license, you paid for it in the first place, and when you sell it, you only give someone one copy, the copy you own, and then you never use it again. This means you are transferring your license. It's your property, and (EULA giving, see below) you can sell it like any other property. But only one copy, because that is all you own. Pirates give out or sell more copies than they bought, and are therefore stealing those copies.

Now, EULAs can mean that some software can't be transfered (although I don't know about whether EULAs would actually work in a court of law, and to what extent). I don't know too much about the matter, as GPLed software doesn't have an EULA . I know how the GPL works, which is something few people do, it seems.
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post #56 of 62
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by stargate125645 View Post
Whatever. It was related and just happened to use your statement as an example.
It wasn't related to trading in video games being illegal. It was a dig in the ribs anda poor one at taht. Please, keep it on topic. If you must have a pop, at least at something inciteful so I can ignore your snide comments and reply to whatever point you may have made that was on topic.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Manyak View Post
Let me explain a little better. Lets take Crytek as an example here, using some arbitrary numbers.

- Crytek spends $98,000 in development costs on Crysis.
- Crytek spends $1 per DVD to burn it, label it, box it, and distribute it.
- Crytek charges $50 per copy upon release, so they must sell 2000 copies to start profiting. In addition, they must make at least another $100,000 in profits so that they can afford to create another game, so 4000 copies must be sold in total.
- Pirate buys one copy of the game for ($50) - this is his "development cost".
- Pirate spends $0.25 per DVD to burn it, label it, and distribute it.
- To compete with Crytek, the Pirate charges $5 per copy, so he must sell 11 copies to begin to profit. In addition, he must make at least another $50 in profits so that he can afford to buy their next game and pirate it as well.
- Many Pirates do the same, so now there are more pirated copies of the game on the market than there are legit ones.
- People see the much cheaper price of pirated games, and start buying those.
- Crytek can no longer compete, and must now reduce their price to $5 to match the competitors (Pirates).
- If Crytek sells only the expected 4000 copies they would have needed to, they would only make $20,000, which doesn't even cover the development cost.


With used game sales, there is ABSOLUTELY NO RISK of this happening because the ENTIRE supply is now coming from Crytek. They do not create any sort of direct competition with the developer in this manner. Piracy creates an infinite supply for the market at any level of demand, effectively reducing the value of the product to 0. Used sales still has a limited supply, and since they are based off of the original sales, they retain their own supply curve and do not share one with the original product. This way, the developer can retain control of his prices and profits.

Read up on some basic economics.

I don't need to read up on basic economics, thanks. I know exactly what you were saying and I know about supply and demand curves I did A-Level business studies during my reign at 6th form.

I'm just saying that piracy numbers, or at the least the losses attributed to piracy, aren't entirely true because they don't take e-bay or trades into consideration and it's clear they should. I'm providing the notion that the dire situation we're apparently in because of piracy isn't as serious as it actually is.

Piracy figures won't take into account (on purpose) the fact that a traded in game, when sold buy the retailer, is a loss to them. It's much easier to use the inflated piracy figures and drive home the point that piracy is bad. Which there's no arguement against that. Piracy is most cases is very bad for the bunsiness.

(I say most cases because I stand by myself; I own a lot of games I do now were it not for the unspeakable)

Quote:
Originally Posted by lattyware View Post
This is just common sense.

When you buy a game, you are buying the right to play that game. You are not buying the game (which is the source code) or the CD (well, you are, but that's not the main thing) (which is the distribution medium.

Now, If you want to sell that license, you can do. The trick is this. You own that license, you paid for it in the first place, and when you sell it, you only give someone one copy, the copy you own, and then you never use it again. This means you are transferring your license. It's your property, and (EULA giving, see below) you can sell it like any other property. But only one copy, because that is all you own. Pirates give out or sell more copies than they bought, and are therefore stealing those copies.

Now, EULAs can mean that some software can't be transfered (although I don't know about whether EULAs would actually work in a court of law, and to what extent). I don't know too much about the matter, as GPLed software doesn't have an EULA . I know how the GPL works, which is something few people do, it seems.
Which isn't being doubted at all. You can, and should trade in your games (if you choose to) and you have the legal right to do that.

But you must see how buying traded in games leaves the developers with a loss because you haven't bought that game brand new and thus they don't get paid for that title. Which is right, imho, that's free-trade for you. But it still counts as a loss for them.
    
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post #57 of 62
That's not the part of the consumer to decide: that's between the retailers, game publishers, and lawmakers.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hout17 View Post
No, I do not believe it is illegal to sell my legitimately paid for games. I also believe it is not illegal for me to sell used legitimately paid for electronics. This thread is definitely producing an interesting BS session lol.
ROFL why do you say "I do not believe.....I also believe...."? It doesn't matter what you believe......whatever the law says is legal....is legal.

If it were illegal to resell games then why is it a huge industry in the US? Answer: it's not This thread is pointless.
Edited by binormalkilla - 6/28/08 at 12:16pm
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post #58 of 62
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shin2k35 View Post
Which isn't being doubted at all. You can, and should trade in your games (if you choose to) and you have the legal right to do that.

But you must see how buying traded in games leaves the developers with a loss because you haven't bought that game brand new and thus they don't get paid for that title. Which is right, imho, that's free-trade for you. But it still counts as a loss for them.


Yes, the devs don't make profit from that person, but that's true with anything you buy second hand. They made a profit from the first person to buy it.

Do you go 'Poor car company' when someone buys a second hand car? No. Exact same thing.
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post #59 of 62
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by binormalkilla View Post
That's not the part of the consumer to decide: that's between the retailers, game publishers, and lawmakers.



ROFL why do you say "I do not believe.....I also believe...."? It doesn't matter what you believe......whatever the law says is legal....is legal.

If it were illegal to resell games then why is it a huge industry in the US? Answer: it's not This thread is pointless.
It is a huge industry.
    
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post #60 of 62
It would only be wrong if you don't uninstall it before selling it...
    
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