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post #12581 of 29803
2 mill isn't bad for an item anyways.
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post #12582 of 29803
MAN! It's crazy how you guys talk about gold... I have not even made my first 5k yet with my one character. redface.gif
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post #12583 of 29803
Okay, so because I got curious I decided to explain and run the numbers comparing a nice weapon with echoing fury and it's effect on monks AoE skills; particularly sweeping wind w/ cyclone. So, if your a monk; click spoiler below. I am typing this post as I go so keep checking back for the updates.

I didn't want to create a new thread for this, because everyone remotely interested in the game on OCN is in here anyway tongue.gif

Also, the first part explains how a weapon DPS (big white number at top) is calculated as well as how dmg modifiers for weapons work.

Credit: I have figured all of this out myself, and others posts have just confirmed my calculations and rationale. As far as sweeping wind, there is a pretty extensive thread on battle.net regarding it that you can probably just use a search engine to find quickly, but the conclusions are somewhat innaccurate as sweeping wind ALWAYS calculates based on the main hand weapon.

The only thing that is not static at the time of sweeping winds activation when it "locks" the damage, other than for purposes of the initial damage calculation, is attacks per second (which alternates between main hand and off hand weapon), critical hit chance, and critical hit damage. Crit chance and Crit dmg however, does remain a constant based on your overall character stats. The only time this would change is if you use the exploit and gear swap (equip a sick 2 hand weapon before popping sweeping wind, then swapping to your faster dual wield) I will explain more below.
Check it out! (Click to show)
So, first off it's important to understand the basics of how a weapon gets its DPS number. Basically i've illustrated below. The main dps number of a weapon (big number at the top) simply comes from the equation MIN dmg + MAX dmg divided by 2, then multiplied by the weapons attack speed. This is because the dmg range is how much damage the weapon does at 1 attack per second.
Everything bracketed in yellow below the attacks per second number goes into determining what a weapons damage range is. Therefore, these things are calculated BEFORE your weapon gets the big white number at the top and has no further effect on your stats. Only exception in this particular case is the "+0.22 attacks per second" because it is a pure attack speed increase affix that also applies to your off hand weapon attack speed.

What I mean here is that a weapon attack speed affix that reads "+% attack speed" ONLY applies to that particular weapon and is applied as stated above BEFORE the overall DPS of the weapon is calculated. Same goes for any elemental damage range modifier.

In this case, as previously stated; +0.22 attacks per second applies to the attacks per second of the weapon BEFORE the big white number is calculated; 1.20 (default mace attack speed + .22 attacks per second (modifier) = 1.42 (which is then multiplied by average weapon damage @ 1 attack per second)

If you don't get this: (Click to show)
Echoing Fury has MIN dmg of 626 and MAX dmg of 1093.

626 (min) + 1093 (max) = 1719

1719 / 2 = 859.5 (average dmg @ 1 attack per second)

859.5 x 1.42 (weapon attack speed) = 1220.49 (voila!)

Now, the affixes highlighted in a yellow bracket: +287 Minimum damage, + 333 Maximum damage, +40% Damage all contribute to the base damage range attribute of the weapon.

This means that the +287 MIN dmg, and the +40% dmg are factored into the base default damage of the 1 handed mace, resulting in the modified MIN dmg of the default weapon of 626. Same goes for the MAX dmg.

The "40% damage" affix affects the weapons default base physical damage range (the range you see when a weapon is not identified). So in this case, it would be factored into the physical damage range BEFORE the MIN/MAX modified range is added on.

In other words; let "A" represent the base
MIN dmg, "B" represent the base MAX dmg. The equation is this;

[(0.4 x A) + A] + 287 = 626
[(0.4 x B) + B] + 333 = 1093

*the 0.4 is the "+40% damage" affix

From here, you would take the default attack speed of the unidentified mace (1.20 attacks per second) and then calculate the default DPS of the unidentified mace. The equation would then be this;

Let "C" represent the average weapon damage @ 1 attack per second

(A + B) / 2 = C

then

C x 1.2 = default base weapon dps of unidentified mace
Updated with correct info!It is also essential to understand the difference between an average damage modifier and an elemental damage modifier. This is vital for knowing how monsters elemental resist will effect how much damage your skills do. Explanation: (Click to show)
To understand physical weapon damage, it is easier to first know how elemental damage modifiers affect a weapon. For this, I will use the kim jong il fist weapon that has the lightning damage modifier:

With elemental damage modifiers, everything in the brackets underneath the weapon attacks per second is factored into the weapon damage range just like I explained above, except for the bonuses of "Adds % to lightning damage" and "lightning skills deal % more damage", so I have crossed those out because they are not important yet. In other words, think of the "+241 - 585 lightning damage" as simply being a MIN - MAX damage modifier. Everything else as far as determining the big white number at the top remains the same as explained before.

Now, the part that is important is knowing how much of that overall weapon dps is considered to be "physical" damage. This is easy and simple to calculate.

Being that the lightning damage modifier is applied just like a normal MIN/MAX damage modifier, all you do is take the overall weapon damage range and subtract the lightning damage modifier range.

As shown above, the "+37% damage" applies to the physical base damage of the weapon only, therefore it is applied to the physical damage range of the weapon before any damage range modifiers are applied. In the case of elemental damage bonuses, its easy and not confusing.

So the equation is simply this;

364 - 241 = 123 MIN physical weapon damage
873 - 585 = 288 MAX physical weapon damage

Therefore you know using the previous calculations that 123 + 288 = 411 ave dmg @ 1 ApS multiplied by 1.4 weapon attack speed = 575.4 physical weapon damage per second. So if a monster has say, 100% lightning resistance, then 575.4 dps is the base weapon damage number that will be used.

I will explain how the damage calculations stack below (basically, how they roll in the line up that results in the actual DPS that monsters are taking).

Now that this is understood. The reason echoing fury is good, is because it is a 1 hander that rolls awesome damage modifiers while still being able to roll the random affixes like sockets, dex, vit, life steal etc... As well as having the fast attack speed that also applies to the offhand weapon. This is epic for sweeping wind w/cyclone rune because it allows you to maintain a high attack speed which procs more cyclones, while calculating a high dps to "lock in" the damage of the skill (sweeping wind is based off of your main hand weapon) ...will explain more below.

How sweeping wind works is it basically "sets" its damage calculations upon activation based on your main hand weapon physical damage properties.

Basically, if you pop breath of heaven for an extra overall 15% damage increase, then pop blinding flash for an extra 30% overall damage increase, and THEN pop sweeping wind, this will SKYROCKET your sweeping wind damage because it will stay locked at that dps that was "set" when the skill was activated, thereby allowing you to keep that extra 45% increased damage on the skill itself even when blinding flash or breath of heaven wears off.

After the sweeping wind "locks" the physical weapon damage from the time it is activated, then the base skill does 45% of that to all enemies within range.

So, the next thing to understand is how the overall physical weapon damage gets up to the crazy ranges that you see your skill ticking for. Click below.
This is what your looking for! (Click to show)
This is how sweeping wind determines the "locked" dps range that the skill will use;

Since it is based on your main hand weapon, I will use again my echoing fury as the example.

*to calculate this you will need to apply your characters overall attack speed for your main hand weapon. Be sure that your main hand weapon is the one activated to get your current attacks per second.

To alternate between your main hand and off hand weapons to refresh your attribute screen, simply hold shift and use your primary attack; just click the mouse button once . In the case of having an echoing fury equipped, your attacks per second will almost ALWAYS be slower with your main hand echoing fury than your off hand weapon (remember this is because that +.22 attack speed applied to the offhand weapon as well, and maces and spears are the slowest 1 handers).

Basically, heres how the calculations work;

These are the stats that will effect the physical dps. Since they are basic offense bonuses, they apply to all physical damage calculations.

Here is how to calculate the MIN and MAX damage of sweeping winds base skill (without a rune). The base skill does NOT proc critical hits, so for now, Crit chance and Crit dmg do not matter, except for the faster your crit chance is, the faster your sweeping wind will get to the max stack count

First, for the minumum damage range of sweeping wind at max stacks (dealing "45% weapon dmg to nearby enemies"):

*note* I have no additional average damage modifiers on any of my gear such as a ring with "+35 - 64 damage" or something to that effect. If you DO have that affix on your gear, simply add them all up from each source, then add it to the overal physical weapon damage range on your main hand weapon. So the echoing fury has damage range of 626 - 1093, if I had a ring with 35 - 64 damage, then the base phsyical damage range of weapon turns into 661 - 1157.

>>>>more to come.


Edited by likethegun - 10/15/12 at 12:49pm
post #12584 of 29803
Quote:
Originally Posted by StaticFX View Post

Dh here. Sorry but that isn't good. That quiver can roll over 15 attack speed. I've seen 19. And the dex is lower. About 2 mil.
I think you underestimate how good max disc AND crit chance is, and the elemental arrow damage is nice for someone who uses ball lightning. You can easily make up for the loss of attack speed with rings and amulets, or on the weapon itself.


@Likethegun, cool, I didn't know the +.22 attacks per second affects your off hand too. I think I'm gonna get one...or at least try. They're probably wayy too expensive for me.
Edited by TheYonderGod - 10/14/12 at 6:30pm
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post #12585 of 29803
Quote:
Originally Posted by likethegun View Post

Bascially, you are not going to get as much from a normal 900-1000 dps weapon. First off, an echoing fury can get up to around 1300 dps. In and of itself that is insane for a 1 hander. This makes our monk AoE abilities a lot more powerful when equipped on main hand because that is what some of them are based off of (main hand weapon). Second, the attack speed bonus is unique to echoing fury; "adds .22 attack speed". The reason this is amazing is because it's a pure attack speed bonus on a weapon; it applies to BOTH weapons instead of just a normal "+%attack speed" which makes just the one particular weapon faster. This is all good news for a monk. thumb.gif
Edit: Oh, link a weapon you want to compare to echoing fury and I will break down the comparison between them and the impact on sweeping wind skill. I will provide the math and everything and make it easy to understand. The main factor tho is getting one with abnormally high dps 1200+ and it being pure physical dmg, as well as the pure attack speed that applies to both weapons. The result is high dps sweeping wind and more cyclone procs that hit a lot harder. If you find a good 900-1000 dps normal weapon that is pure physical dmg, then it could potentially give you more overall dps than my particular echoing fury. Keep in mind though, an echoing fury like mine with a socket is second to none in a monk cyclone build.

You're right, I used a dps calculator and the echoing fury was indeed better. I bought one but not with life leech as those are rather expensive. Thanks for all the advice guys HardwareDecoder and Yonder also. You guys have some beast builds and I hope to get there some day. I finally feel like I'm on the right track with my monk now that I can take on inferno act 1 in a 4 player game. My life is very low, only 22k, after all the budget changes. So I'll have to work on getting that back up as well as resistance before I even attempt act 2. A question about backlash, I've seen it proc a couple times but it's never when I'm attacking. Does the effect actually proc when your attacking or only standing still/running? I'm just not sure how effective it is for me at the moment.
Edited by computerparts - 10/14/12 at 7:17pm
post #12586 of 29803
Quote:
Originally Posted by computerparts View Post

You're right, I used a dps calculator and the echoing fury was indeed better. I bought one but not with life leech as those are rather expensive. Thanks for all the advice guys HardwareDecoder and Yonder also. You guys have some beast builds and I hope to get there some day. I finally feel like I'm on the right track with my monk now that I can take on inferno act 1 in a 4 player game. My life is very low, only 22k, after all the budget changes. So I'll have to work on getting that back up as well as resistance before I even attempt act 2. A question about backlash, I've seen it proc a couple times but it's never when I'm attacking. Does the effect actually proc when your attacking or only standing still/running? I'm just not sure how effective it is for me at the moment.
Backlash has a chance to proc when you dodge an attack. So no, nothing to do with attacking. I forgot to mention to you, something I think is stupid and blizz should have enabled by default... but go into options>gameplay and make sure you tick the box that says "show advanced tooltips"

This will drastically improve your understanding of skills. Granted, it leaves out a lot of details still... which is why im working on that previous post to explain sweeping wind thumb.gif

Oh, and another note; do not use backlash if you don't have life leech. All it will be doing is really having you deal more damage, which is good, but if you having survivability issues with your lower health, then use hard target.
Edited by likethegun - 10/14/12 at 7:39pm
post #12587 of 29803
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheYonderGod View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by StaticFX View Post

Dh here. Sorry but that isn't good. That quiver can roll over 15 attack speed. I've seen 19. And the dex is lower. About 2 mil.
I think you underestimate how good max disc AND crit chance is, and the elemental arrow damage is nice for someone who uses ball lightning. You can easily make up for the loss of attack speed with rings and amulets, or on the weapon itself.

I missed the max disc. Ok u could add a least mill or 2 for that and yeah, the elemental bonus is the most popular. But that crit chance on most is 9 or higher anyway, and a lot have 9.5 with attack 15 or higher...
I would list it at a few mill with no buyout and see what happens.
post #12588 of 29803
Quote:
because if not, then skills that are based off of physical weapon dmg would simply be terrible considering most high dps weapons have some sort of elemental modifier

How do you tell if a skill is based off of physical weapon dmg only? All skills (the ones I checked atleast) are worded as X% weapon damage and some say x% weapon damage as fire/physical/lightning ect.

I ask because I had no idea that some skills only used the physical dmg portion of weapons and ignore the added elemental dmg. I thought all skills treated the elemental dmg portion just like it was physical dmg. The only difference was that the monsters resistance would reduce that portion of dmg the elemental dmg added.
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post #12589 of 29803
Quote:
Originally Posted by Myrtl View Post

How do you tell if a skill is based off of physical weapon dmg only? All skills (the ones I checked atleast) are worded as X% weapon damage and some say x% weapon damage as fire/physical/lightning ect.
I ask because I had no idea that some skills only used the physical dmg portion of weapons and ignore the added elemental dmg. I thought all skills treated the elemental dmg portion just like it was physical dmg. The only difference was that the monsters resistance would reduce that portion of dmg the elemental dmg added.
If the skill says simply "this skill deal X% weapon damage" then that means it's based strictly off of physical weapon damage to my understanding. I think that is the main reason for the "+X% damage" modifier on the weapon itself, in order to boost the weapons physical damage. I am not 100% certain though, which is why I just tailored that post i'm working on towards monks sweeping wind skill, because I know thats how it works. I will do some more research/testing though and update with what I find.
Edited by likethegun - 10/15/12 at 10:22am
post #12590 of 29803
Quote:
Originally Posted by likethegun
If the skill says simply "this skill deal X% weapon damage" then that means it's based strictly off of physical weapon damage to my understanding. I think that is the main reason for the "+X% damage" modifier on the weapon itself, in order to boost the weapons physical damage. I am not 100% certain though, which is why I just tailored that post i'm working on towards monks sweeping wind skill, because I know thats how it works. I will do some more research/testing though and update with what I find.

I am only trying to understand how this could affect other skills. I don't play too often, but it looks like it would greatly affect how I look for new weapons.

If I don't know what skills don't count the +X elemental damage (like sweeping winds), any weapon with +X elemental damage is useless. I would be much better or safer only getting weapons with +min/+max dmg on it. That way I am not unknowingly hurting my DPS because the paper doll has became a lie again. Or am I just miss understanding something?
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