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post #2631 of 29769
Quote:
Originally Posted by PrimeBurn View Post

de·vel·op·ment - [dih-vel-uhp-muhnt]
noun
1. the act or process of developing; growth; progress:
What you're describing isn't development, it is selection. Choices during development means choosing which options you possess as you progress. You never make a choice as to which skill or rune you get when you level.
Yes, you don't have instant access to all skills available to you and every character of your level, you have 15 second access to all skills.

Btw in open beta this weekend, it was a 5 second cooldown wink.gif
Quote:
Originally Posted by PrimeBurn View Post

I don't see how this would be a big deal. It seems like most of the players in D2 on US East are in Québécois French some nights.

I just figured that they would try to group regions by native language and currency as best they could. Perhaps not, though.
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post #2632 of 29769
Quote:
Originally Posted by Crazy9000 View Post

How does letting everyone use any skill of the class restricting choice? It's doing the exact opposite. Everyone is free to try their interesting and innovative build once they find the item that gives them an idea. This is promoting build diversity, not killing it. It takes some time to get used to, but it actually makes more and more sense the more you read about it, and the more you use it.

It isn't restricting choice of what you use, it restricting choice in how you develop. I prefer that in a game like this I make choices and I work my way through the levels of the game using the strengths of and compensating for the weakness of my choices in how I developed my character. That has a different feel to me than swapping in different gear to see what happens when I have all the skills/runes available to me at level 60.

It isn't a matter of not making sense. It is a matter of whether a person likes it. I understand the system as it has been described completely. I would prefer that rather than receiving a static benefit when I level, that is the same every time I level a character and is the same for every other character of that class, that there be options at each level, and that those options have significant meaning in what a character can and can't do ongoing throughout the game.

I don't mind some method of respec, as long as it isn't something that can be done too easily or quickly. And I'd really be in favor of a system that made level up choices changeable within an hour of gametime to avoid the "oops" rebuild of D2 pre-respec where you mis-clicked and gimped yourself.
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post #2633 of 29769
Quote:
Originally Posted by PrimeBurn View Post

I'm pretty sure the hard top on an Eclipse isn't removable, at least not without torch and significant time. And I know for a fact i can't swap out my stick shift for an automatic to drive into the city, then switch it out again for the weekend. But keep trying to obfuscate by nattering at details of the analogy.
Not missing anything - multiply by zero and the result is zero. If I make no choices in which options I have available to me, and by extension, which options I don't, I had zero agency in developing my character. With agency in character development being an essential part of the genre for me, the number of options I have to pick from at a given time is irrelevant.
If Agency = X and Options = Z, and Agency = 0, X*Z=0 whether Z is 1 or 1000000.
I don't know what you're trying to say here. I'll assume it is some kind of sarcasm and let it be.
One build being more effective than another does not mean you didn't have choices or that it wasn't customizable. What works well or is enjoyable for one person isn't always going to be the same for another.
Name calling and telling me to shut up? I understand the genre. I have things I like and expect about from it that differ from yours. I'm not trying to rub off anything on you, I'm responding with reasoned explanation to repeated attempts to stifle legitimate discussion with insults.
It is a forum, people express opinions. I've done so without insulting the people whose opinions that differ from mine, I'd appreciate it if others would do the same.

doh.gif
Quote:
Originally Posted by Crazy9000 View Post

How does letting everyone use any skill of the class restricting choice? It's doing the exact opposite. Everyone is free to try their interesting and innovative build once they find the item that gives them an idea. This is promoting build diversity, not killing it. It takes some time to get used to, but it actually makes more and more sense the more you read about it, and the more you use it.

Based on your response to this, you aren't looking for development. Your looking for consequences.
Edited by The_Hairy_Yak - 4/23/12 at 1:19pm
post #2634 of 29769
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bobotheklown View Post

Btw in open beta this weekend, it was a 5 second cooldown wink.gif
Ahhh. Patch 16 change. Explains why I only hit it a couple times after leveling.
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post #2635 of 29769
Quote:
Originally Posted by PrimeBurn View Post

It isn't restricting choice of what you use, it restricting choice in how you develop. I prefer that in a game like this I make choices and I work my way through the levels of the game using the strengths of and compensating for the weakness of my choices in how I developed my character. That has a different feel to me than swapping in different gear to see what happens when I have all the skills/runes available to me at level 60.
It isn't a matter of not making sense. It is a matter of whether a person likes it. I understand the system as it has been described completely. I would prefer that rather than receiving a static benefit when I level, that is the same every time I level a character and is the same for every other character of that class, that there be options at each level, and that those options have significant meaning in what a character can and can't do ongoing throughout the game.
I don't mind some method of respec, as long as it isn't something that can be done too easily or quickly. And I'd really be in favor of a system that made level up choices changeable within an hour of gametime to avoid the "oops" rebuild of D2 pre-respec where you mis-clicked and gimped yourself.

So, my understanding is that you view a skill tree as a way to develop your character? That way you know not everyone will have the exact same skills available to you because they probably unlocked different skills? If I remember right, D3 started off trying to make a system like this work. They ended up scrapping it.

From what I remember (correct me if I'm wrong someone) the developers realized that a lot of people would never try out all of the skills and rune combinations. So, I think the unlock per level approach was taken as a way to show off all their hard work. If at lvl 60 you determined you liked the skills you used at lvl 1.... Go for it! This may not be your idea of developing a character, but it still provided a lot of choices that should prevent cookie cutter builds.

What would be your idea of a non static benefit you could receive when you level up? That might help us understand.
Edited by Myrtl - 4/23/12 at 1:33pm
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post #2636 of 29769
Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Hairy_Yak View Post

doh.gif
Based on your response to this, you aren't looking for development. Your looking for consequences.

Choices have consequences, thus choices in development would have consequences. Choices in which skill you use have consequences, if which skill your character used didn't have a consequence, I would dislike that as well.
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post #2637 of 29769
Quote:
Originally Posted by PrimeBurn View Post

Choices have consequences, thus choices in development would have consequences. Choices in which skill you use have consequences, if which skill your character used didn't have a consequence, I would dislike that as well.

Obviously your choices will have consequences. If you get a new skill, apply a rune that changes the damage type, and suddenly run into a pack of immune... well, good luck...

There will be the exact same consequences as a skill tree, just in a different form and not as obvious.
post #2638 of 29769
So all of our so called "development" in this will be gear and gen based?? welll if D2 had skill/attribute point developement and it resulted in a lot of "cookie cutter" builds(or as known on neverwinter nights 1 and 2, as powerbuilds), then we will end up with a lot of people buying, crafting or farming for all the same darn gear.... so in that respect blizzard has shifted a problem from one end and shifted to another...and since it is more gear based and there is this lovely new auction house thing, guess who stands to gain more out of this system.....
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post #2639 of 29769
Quote:
Originally Posted by Myrtl View Post

So, my understanding is that you view a skill tree as a way to develop your character? That way you know not everyone will have the exact same skills available to you because they probably unlocked different skills? If I remember right, D3 started off trying to make a system like this work. They ended up scrapping it.
From what I remember (correct me if I'm wrong someone) the developers realized that a lot of people would never try out all of the skills and rune combinations. So, I think the unlock per level approach was taken as a way to show off all their hard work. If at lvl 60 you determined you liked the skills you used at lvl 1.... Go for it! This may not be your idea of developing a character, but it still provided a lot of choices that should prevent cookie cutter builds.
What would be your idea of a non static benefit you could receive when you level up? That might help us understand.

What you remember is probably correct. Plenty of people did nothing in D2 except have a hammerdin rushed by a friend, supplied with gear, and off they went. They enjoyed it, so I don't see anything wrong with it. But that wasn't how everyone played the game. If you chaeck the long running Diablo forums, and especially if you played the game in its prime, there were a lot of people who leveled and played things straight.

I'm not a big fan of self-serving designer choices like quick-time events to force people that dislike cutscenes to watch cutscenes and reduce the enjoyment of people who do enjoy cutscenes by forcing them to look for little flashing stuff at the edges or corners of the screen. So, we wanted to show off all our work isn't a design paradigm that I'm a fan of either. Neither is, balancing things is hard, which, though I may be wrong, I seem to recall being another reason for scrapping the skill tree system.

Static was a poor choice of words on my part. Usually we talk about static and random bonuses in D2 so that isn't really clear. Assigned would be better. I would prefer a choice between X and Y if you get X, you don't get Y, at least at that level and that chopice mattering ongoing. And ideally multiple options, each of which has benefit and cost, even if it is just the opportunity cost of not being able to choose something else. So essentially, a skill tree or a skill wheel, which despite not being new, does what it is supposed to. But, getting assigned unlocks at each level isn't new or innovative either...
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post #2640 of 29769
Reminder, new spotlight vid featuring the witch doctor! Bob have you watched this yet?

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