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[NYT] Why Windows Needs to Start Over - Page 10

post #91 of 101
Quote:
Originally Posted by pauldovi View Post
Because the lack of DX is the only complaint people have about Linux...
OpenGL is superior to DX anyways.

There are just as many if not more complaints that can be lobbied against MS as well.

Windows has some serious issues with the API and that needs to be redone. The kernel however is fine. So a half start would be good.
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post #92 of 101
Quote:
Originally Posted by pauldovi View Post
Who are you going to pay to make an embedded version of Windows. The only person that could do that is MS itself and it would cost a lot more than $10k to do. I don't think you understand the development costs of Windows. Vista rang up a bill well over $10 billion dollars.
I am well aware of the development costs of Windows. That has exactly nothing to do with what I was talking about.

You don't even need to know how to program to build a version of embedded windows.

Windows Embedded is already a complete kit. You simply buy the licence and tools you need from microsoft, and you pick and choose what you need to have in the OS, leaving out the rest. it's essentially a more complete and official version of n-lite.

There are thousands upon thousands of different configurations of Embedded Windows out there. It sure as hell did not cost billions, or even millions for each one.

You can actually download a free trial and set up your own version of it, for free.

http://www.microsoft.com/windows/emb...e/default.mspx

I lack the skills to do what I really want with this, and I want a fully licenced, no-expiration date, version. This is where the 5,000-10,000 dollars comes from. it's the cost of the licences I require and the labor needed to get it where I want it.
Edited by Blameless - 7/1/08 at 7:50am
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post #93 of 101
Quote:
Originally Posted by ice_owl View Post
Has anyone here tried out a striped down version of Vista? Supposedly performance is way better after shedding the extra weight. If performance is what your after.
Apparently Server 2008 makes a killer workstation OS, too. Not everything works, especially not all games; but it's supposed to be waaaaay zippier than Vista on the same hardware.
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post #94 of 101
Quote:
Originally Posted by VulcanDragon View Post
Apparently Server 2008 makes a killer workstation OS, too. Not everything works, especially not all games; but it's supposed to be waaaaay zippier than Vista on the same hardware.
There were a few of us here who ran slightly modified versions of Server 2003 for much the same reason.
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post #95 of 101
Vista 64 = zippy as the eval of Server 2008 I had.
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post #96 of 101
Quote:
Originally Posted by Modki View Post
Hmm this thread is no longer productive.

Would it be nice if Windows was re-written? Sure. In some alternate reality where all software developers code quickly to match the re-release of a brand new OS...

Is it going to happen. No.

So you guys should relax a little okay? It's just a stupid internet thread.
The eyes are back...
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post #97 of 101
"Any intelligent fool can make things bigger, more complex, and more violent. It takes a touch of genius -- and a lot of courage -- to move in the opposite direction."

"We cannot solve our problems with the same thinking we used when we created them."

"It has become appallingly obvious that our technology has exceeded our humanity."

-Albert Einstein



I just stumbled-upon on these quotes and found them ironically appropriate for this thread.
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post #98 of 101
Quote:
Originally Posted by PiratesRule View Post
OpenGL is superior to DX anyways.

There are just as many if not more complaints that can be lobbied against MS as well.

Windows has some serious issues with the API and that needs to be redone. The kernel however is fine. So a half start would be good.
I don't know to much about OpenGL or DX. So, asumming you do know what you are talking about, I will take your word for it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by VulcanDragon View Post
Apparently Server 2008 makes a killer workstation OS, too. Not everything works, especially not all games; but it's supposed to be waaaaay zippier than Vista on the same hardware.
I ran the trial version of Server 2008 and I really liked it. In reality it is the same thing as Vista, expect for 2 main things:

1. Server 2008 doesn't have Vista's DRM
2. Everything that is default "enabled" in Vista is default "disabled" in Server 2008.

Server 2008 is compatible with everything that is compatible with Vista. You have to enable the proper "modules". The only down side to server 2008 is most anti-virus's won't install because they want you to buy the server license for them and MS doesn't sell a comsumer appealing license for Server 2008.
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post #99 of 101
Thread Starter 
The problem with windows is not so much the NT kernel itself (although the NT kernel has its legacy induced pitfalls), but the bloated cruftyness that has built up over the past decade or so.

IE8's upcoming standards mode is a perfect illustration of Microsoft's woes. Ars Technica has two articles that can spell it out better than I can, but I will try to summarize. IE5 was broken. Every web developer knew this and Microsoft knew this. Due to overwhelming market share, however, much of the web was hacked and coded to play nice with IE5's broken rendering. In IE6 MS introduced "standards mode." Web sites could put up a flag and tell IE to render according to official standards, otherwise it would render according to IE5's broken methods. Problem is, IE6's standards were not actually standards. They too were broken, but in a different way. In IE7, MS made more of an attempt to adhere to standards and kept the separate modes. This broke a lot of websites, they were still using IE6 "standards," so they would not render correctly in the default quirks mode, but they also would not render correctly in IE7's standards mode. In IE8, MS is going to add a third mode. Quirks mode will render according to the old, old, broken methods. Standards mode would render according to IE7's standards mode, and the new mode would actually adhere to HTML standards. Out of a fear of "breaking the web" by actually complying with HTML standards, IE8 was originally going to default to "standards mode" (read - IE7's broken standards). Thankfully it will actually comply (at least to most standards).

These are the problems that MS faces every time they update, but keep backwards compatibility, and it is a major reason for bloat. Vista didn't break apps because the system was changing, it broke apps because it was fixing XP's broken API's. Problem is, a lot of enterprise and other apps depend on the broken behavior to work. So Microsoft patches and patches and bends over backwards to make apps that depend on broken behavior work, apps that depend on broken behavior that was "fixed" in the past, and apps that depend on the API's actually working the way they say they'll work.

Maybe Microsoft doesn't need to start from a clean slate. The NT kernel still works, even if it reflects design decisions that were acceptable compromises back in the 16-bit days. The system built on top of it, though, is a mess. Can anybody explain, for example, why the 64-bit binaries reside in system32, whereas the 32-bit binaries reside in syswow64? It's all stuff that may or may not have made sense when it was implemented, but sure as hell doesn't make sense as a whole. All of that crap builds up exponentially, and compounds itself to the extent that Microsoft is forced to extend XP support to more then a decade to cope with the fact that their dinosaur of a new OS can't run on the emerging ultra low cost laptop market. Linux and OS X can run on a phone. I don't think we'll be seeing Vista there any time soon.

@paul - From your comments in this thread it seems like you have never done any software development. If this is untrue I apologize, but you must realize that the view from a user's perspective is not at all indicative of the state of the system. One thing MS is big on is that from one version to the next, it's still Windows. The user's experience stays relatively the same, but underneath the cracks are most definitely showing.
Edited by rabidgnome229 - 7/1/08 at 5:47pm
It goes to eleven
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post #100 of 101
Quote:
Originally Posted by rabidgnome229 View Post
IE8's upcoming standards mode is a perfect illustration of Microsoft's woes.
Yep, I am so not looking forward to IE8. On one hand, it's great that they are actually intending to enforce compliance with HTML standards. On the other hand, I have a pretty big application portfolio that, if I were to guess, is not going to play well with IE8 when the compliance mode is enabled. I'm sure we'll be expected to comply; our customers are likely to adopt IE8, and I doubt that solutions such as "turn off standards compliance" will be well received! And I don't think my development staff is capable of fixing it all, frankly. Troubled waters ahead for Vulcan's IT shop.
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