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post #1 of 11
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ok so what's this about? AMD

I just saw an ad from AMD whose message was clearly and unmistakably this (most of which was explicitly stated): competition drives innovation, choose AMD.

What does this say about the status of AMD? Showing weakness and playing off pity to get buyers? IMO this is shameful from the same 'moral' standpoint that everyone seems to say AMD always is on higher ground in than Intel. Although it is a good business move (only to the enthusiasts), the sheep won't listen to this, will they? When have they ever given a crap which performs better, much less which one affects competition in the marketplace??
Whatever the geek computer genius prodigy kid at Geek Squad says "P4 is faster! MORE GHZ!!! ! OMG!!!!11" is what they do as long as its cheap (note -- doesn't have to be cheapest, has to be the cheapest solution that they know of. This is the only reason Intel didn't lose more market share during the Athlon64 vs P4 days)

Now however, Intel clearly has the performance crown. Intel has the price/performance crown *debatable at sub-100 cpus*. And acquiring ATi seems to be the only thing keeping AMD afloat.

What is the pending miracle that will save AMD? What revolution in computer architecture will they make that Intel

A - can't come out with something before AMD's release that is better faster cheaper
B - can't copy and out produce, and cheapen (you can 'essentially' copy without technically copying saving from lawsuit)_

Will Intel keep AMD in the market in order to avoid huge penalties for monopoly/anti-trust stuff?
If so, how do they balance that while providing a superior product?
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post #2 of 11
I think when they ship 45nm Phenoms, they'll get back in the game a little, hopefully these will overclock alot better than current offerings, and consume less power...
post #3 of 11
The new 45nm are DDR2 and DDR3 compatible so most AM2+ MB will support them with a BIOS update.

http://www.overclock.net/hardware-ne...cpus-will.html
    
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post #4 of 11
there is nothing wrong, giving the language you used to reproduce what you saw, for AMD to suggest that the combination of better prices, different microprocessor architecture and a different market perspective than intel equates to asking for pity from the general public... I am an AMD guy and i consider my rigs to be top of the line hands down.

I honestly never get the perception that AMD wants pitty. I applaud them for using a non-confrontational, non in your face, mega marketing scheme to get customers and supporters. Instead I think AMD relies upon word of mouth support and good products to win people over. Hell they even made me sell an intel rig i had for about 4 months... Knowing what I know; that AMD is more affordable, and provides superior products where it counts, is all i need to keep buying their products.

Here is the reality: you dont need a Extreme Q9650 overclocked to 5ghz to do some multi tasking, burn more than one cd at once, play games, chat, surf the web, do real work, and experiment.

this is the reality that most people truthfully experience with computers. Consumers are smart enough to know that is overkill and very expesive overkill... they want afordability and functionality and performance together, not just the later two without the former. AMD does that for them.

My question is what do you want from AMD and whats the reason for blasting them? I personally do not want to see Intel logos plastured on the inside of my games and on every widow, billboard or tshirt. it makes me sick.
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post #5 of 11
Buying ATI didn't exactly keep AMD afloat, as I recall when AMD acquired ATI they had a large amount of debt due to a few pending lawsuits that AMD had to cough up the dough for (can't find a link but swear its true, at least in my mind). So they had to pay for that on top of the $5.4 billion. Then AMD got stomped on by the core 2. It did look grim but now with the unbelievable success of the HD 4000 series cards things are looking good. If the 45nm Phenoms come in a reasonable amount of time and people can get the clocks some are talking about (just say a thread about them being able to hit 4GHz) I think AMD will be just fine, but don't expect them to step over Intel.

As far as the ad, I do think it is dumb to try to promote themselves the way they you described it, but right now (no offense to AMD) the processor market is completely one sided and they really don't have any advantages over Intel IMO.
post #6 of 11
Its one sided, but only for those that buy Intel... It not one sided at all for the more educated consumer.
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post #7 of 11
I think that something that often gets overlooked, is the fact that brand loyalty still very much exists, no matter what happens. There will still be diehards in each camp (just like Ford vs Chevy). I'd say that as far as absolute performance goes, it is absolutley onesided, Intel has got it all right now.

But the deciding factor (for me) was that I'd had very good experiences with AMD before, and at the time that I was building my new rig I could build something with SIMILAR performance for much less money. In fact, when I priced it out, I could get a CPU, mobo, ram and PSU for the same amount as a comparable Intel CPU and mobo alone. Since I am poor, that is what made the difference to me. I will not dispute the fact that Intel is faster, and is better when it comes to extreme performance. I just didn't happen to need the extra 7% performance for the extra 33% in cost increase.

That is my opinion.

P.S.
I am very excited about all of the new developments and upcoming processors. The competition is good for us, even if it might not be the best marketing ploy.
post #8 of 11
Quote:
Originally Posted by Systemic_Anomaly
I just saw an ad from AMD whose message was clearly and unmistakably this (most of which was explicitly stated): competition drives innovation, choose AMD.
The origination of this ad was a campaign initiated by AMD to promote public awareness of Intel's anti-competitive strategies. Specifically, they are talking about cases where Intel paid off manufacturers such as HP or Dell to cancel or stall their plans to rollout AMD-based desktops.

As for AMD's position as far as performance goes, this is something that is very commonly mistaken. Phenom processors are not as far behind C2Q's as most people on this forum would have you believe. The main drawback to the Phenom when compared to C2Q isn't actually the performance at stock, it's overclocking. The other thing that I see very often is claims that AMD somehow lied about the performance benefit from Barcelona. When AMD was talking about it before release, AMD made the statement that Barcelona would be about 40% faster than Clovertown. Immeidately obvious from this statement is the fact that AMD referred to both architectures by the name of their respective server platforms. The fact that they specifically mentioned the server platform, to me at least, means that the 40% improvement would be seen in server workloads since that's what one would expect to find running on a server platform. Mistakenly, most enthusiasts and tech writers interpreted this statement to mean that Phenom would be faster by a similar amount. Obviously this wasn't the case, but AMD never claimed that it was. In reality, as far as desktop performance goes, AMD said pre-release that Barcelona would provide about a 15% clock-for-clock advantage over K8 and this is what Phenom delivered:


But how far is Phenom really behind C2Q? It's really not as much as one might think. Here are some examples of what I mean. (Note that you will not find any synthetic benchmarks because I don't find them to be particularly relevant most of the time).

The first benchmark is single-threaded gaming (Team Fortress 2). What I'm looking at in these benchmarks is the Phenom 9750 vs Q6600 because of the identical clock speed:


Being single threaded, the Q6600 does outperform the 9750 here since this is one of the weak spots for Phenom. However, I think that most of this advantage can actually be attributed to the greater amount of cache seen on the Q6600*, given what Tom's Hardware found concerning cache and gaming:


If we look at multi-threaded gaming where additional cache becomes less of a benefit, the Phenom 9750 outperforms the Q6600 at the same clock speed:


This last gaming benchmark (BioShock) is an example of GPU-bound performance (which gaming is going to be most of the time), and it shows that Phenom is hardly behind the Core2 architecture at all when it comes to real-world gaming:


Moving on to image processing performance, I'll start with Photoshop CS3:

Here the difference between the 9850BE and the Q9300 is 3.5 seconds or ~13%. While this may seem bad clock-for-clock, the Q9300 costs ~13% more than the 9850BE ($270 vs $235).

MP3/Audio encoding is another common task that I think should be included when comparing CPUs. In this case, the results that I have were with an Intel compiled version of LAME. This means that there are optimizations that allow it to run better on Intel's CPUs, and usually these optimizations will simply ensure optimial use of cache. With that in mind, the Phenom 9750 doesn't look very bad against the Q6600 at all:


Next up is video encoding. DivX are not present because IIRC it is optimized quite extensively for Intel chips, so the results are really not surprising. Instead, this is from Windows Media Encoder, and the results actually differ between Anandtech and TechReport:

I'm not quite sure why the 9850BE beats the Q6600 on one and not the other. But, either way Core2 does have a slight edge here, but it's nothing like some members would have you believe, and I think that this advantage may be related to cache sizes.*

Going into 3D Rendering, first with Cinebench:


Here the 9750 only barely trails the Q6600, but the Q9300's lead over the 9850BE is a bit bigger. This difference is probably due to the 9300's SSE4 extensions. This effect can be seen again on the 3dsmax benchmark:

Let's not forget POV-ray:


The other thing to look at here is scaling. Based off the Cinebench scores (since it has a single and multithreaded score), Phenoms scale considerably better than C2Q's:
Phenom 9850BE has 3.92x the performance with multithreading
C2Q Q9300 has 3.65x the performance with multithreading

The point of all this is that Phenom is nowhere close to the massive failure that it's made out to be, and AMD as a company is certainly not even close to worthless. The fact that with significantly less resources than Intel, they can still manage to put out a very competitive cpu while simultaneously releasing extremely competitive chipset and GPU products speaks volumes about AMD's ability.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Systemic_Anomaly
What is the pending miracle that will save AMD? What revolution in computer architecture will they make that Intel

A - can't come out with something before AMD's release that is better faster cheaper
B - can't copy and out produce, and cheapen (you can 'essentially' copy without technically copying saving from lawsuit)
*One of the reasons that I kept bringing up cache sizes was because the other thing that was mentioned by the OP concerned what AMD has planned. As part of the move to 45nm, Phenom will see it's L3 cache size tripled from 2MB to 6MB. I plan on writing another post as to what I think the 45nm transition will do to Phenom, but I'm too tired to do that right now.

Benchmark sources:
TechReport
Anandtech
Tom's Hardware (Cache Size & Gaming)
post #9 of 11
when you look at a subject like this it's no different than comparing video cards....

People are always quick to quote and post numbers...because it's shown on paper one CPU is faster than the other it must be true....

people are to quick to jump on the hype wagon and flame the other team...just shows how idiotic most of us really are...

even though AMD isnt toted as being as fast as Intel I still build and ship AMD rigs....it's all about price...

but even saying that I have 6 AMD rigs and 1Intel rig...

my to main rigs are both mATX rigs as of the late (like the space savings)

my first main rig is a Biostar tforce 7050-m2 HDMI with a 5000BE clocked to 2.8ghz with a 7600gt and 2x1gig og G-Skill NQs....this is the rig the wife plays with and we do most of our together gaming on...

My rig is a Asus P5E-VM HDMI with a Q6700 clocked at 3ghz with a 9600gt and 2x1gig of G-Skill BPKs (1066)...I use this rig as my net surfer and video encoder and our together gamer....

Me and the wife sit here on many, many nights and play games like Rainbow6 Vegas2 or she plays POGO while I play something else...

knowing I have the faster of the 2 rigs it would seem I am more dominant in games but that isnt so....

we can start R6V2 at the same time and she will load in every time seconds before me...and my hard drive is twice as fast as hers...so dont always think the faster rig is always the better....not always true...
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post #10 of 11
Quote:
What is the pending miracle that will save AMD? What revolution in computer architecture will they make that Intel

A - can't come out with something before AMD's release that is better faster cheaper
B - can't copy and out produce, and cheapen (you can 'essentially' copy without technically copying saving from lawsuit)_
AMD brought the IMC to the desktop, and forced Intel to rethink their FSB architecture, culminating in quad-pumping, increased clock rates and now finally an Intel IMC on Nehalem this year.

AMD brought out backwards-compatible 64-bit x86 that is now an industry standard, scaling from handheld devices to the fastest supercomputer in the world. Intel conceded and included a compatible technology named 'EM64T'.

AMD brought the megahertz myth and megahertz race to an end with more powerful, lower clocked processors and drove Intel in a ditch with their overheating, underperforming NetBurst architecture - again forcing them to rethink.

Barcelona is akin to what Intel did with NetBurst, when faced with competition, don't reinvent yourself, keep trudging on the old architecture and lower prices, maybe we'll stumble on something.. I'm sure they'll get out of the ditch eventually, but right now their CPU products are truly uninteresting. I'm personally looking at Intel for the next build, I don't care so much about brand as long as there's a choice.

However, to state that Intel always out-innovates them or that all AMD does is to copy Intel and price lower is completely ignorant and just goes to show that one has had one's head in the ditch for the last eight years save the two most recent ones.
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