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[Fud] ATI's R700 Spartan has 2GB of memory - Page 7

post #61 of 103
Quote:
Originally Posted by a1161979 View Post
And prehaps you fail to realise that being an oligopoly AMD will not price and supply at the intersections of the Marginal Revenue and Marginal Cost curves and therefore your supply and demand idea suddenly seems a little silly Prehaps you should actually study economics before making such claims. Clearly considering the current market situation for both Ati and Nvidia it is not in eithers interest to interact with the market in a supply and demand sence
HUH?
    
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post #62 of 103
Quote:
Originally Posted by A Russian :D View Post
HUH?
Well i thought i'd cut down the guy who thought he knew some economics :swearing:

In noob language he was wrong about his supply and demand business because of what i said Anyway ignore me im an economics student and were all a sad bunch
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post #63 of 103
Quote:
Originally Posted by a1161979 View Post
Well i thought i'd cut down the guy who thought he knew some economics :swearing:

In noob language he was wrong about his supply and demand business because of what i said Anyway ignore me im an economics student and were all a sad bunch
ok....
    
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post #64 of 103
I seriously hope that the R700/4870x2 has a better cooling solution than the 4870x1 has...these things sound like leaf blowers and the cards still run hot, even with 7 case fans...then again, I hear this is somewhat due to immature catalyst fan drivers for the 4800 series.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Jarhead View Post
Was wondering what that 2GB could possibly be used for and then I read this:

Watch Out, Larrabee: Radeon 4800 Supports A 100% Ray-traced Pipeline Using DirectX 9

Suddenly my 2900XT's seem to have a bit more life in them. 20-30 FPS is playable and I don't use AA anyway
This article is about ray tracing (i.e. rendering scenes as used in SFX and 3d animation applications), not gaming performance. So, your description of the quoted specs as "playable" is a bit inappropriate. Although the addition of raytracing compatibility (especially at the quoted performance levels) in ATI cards is a great addition, especially for those in the film industry, it doesn't mean much for gamers or general PC users at this point. Very few consumer 3d graphics applications (Maya, C4D, Blender, whatever) implement this type of GPU acceleration at this point anyway, so unless you're in the extreme-high-end 3d graphics business and are coding your own rendering software, this is pretty much irrelevant.

...although it is nice to know that ATIs market share will be bolstered by purchases from the extreme-performance segment of the SFX/film industry

Quote:
Originally Posted by a1161979
And prehaps you fail to realise that being an oligopoly AMD will not price and supply at the intersections of the Marginal Revenue and Marginal Cost curves and therefore your supply and demand idea suddenly seems a little silly Prehaps you should actually study economics before making such claims. Clearly considering the current market situation for both Ati and Nvidia it is not in eithers interest to interact with the market in a supply and demand sence
...wrong.

First of all, oligopolistic firms DO produce a quantity at which their marginal revenue equals their marginal costs; any firm (monopoly, oligopoly, or perfect competitor) in a market economy will. Oligopolistic forms may charge a price higher than what their marginal costs require (due to a demand which exceeds their marginal revenue), but the quantity or "supply" will not be changed over any other type of industry.

Secondly, the effectiveness of price inflation due to the demand-exceeds-MR characteristic of an oligopolistic market requires all of the relevant firms in the industry to exhibit collusion (commonly called "price-setting") and therefore agree to price within a Nash Equilibrium model. Collusion is illegal ;-) and an industry in Nash Equilibrium tends to fail within a short time anyway due to the incentive for firms to cheat. The graphics card industry is most certainly not in NE, and the two leading firms are non-collusive. ATI/AMD and nVidia operate as independent (non-collusive) oligopolistic firms whose products are in valid price competition; ATI is perfectly able to produce at a level at which their price-to-performance ratio is lower than nVidia's, but customers will still be free to buy the substitute good (i.e. an nVidia card) if given financial incentive to do so. As a result, both companies are affected by the market forces in the industry, just as if they were in monopolistic competition rather than oligopolistic competition, and are subject to the pulls of market supply and demand.

The only difference between the current state (noncollusive oligopoly) and if the industry were in perfect competition is that both producers (ATI and nV) may charge at prices above their marginal costs, therefore earning a profit. The extent to which they can do this, however, is dependent on their demand curve, which in turn is dependent on the actions of the competing firm. If (as you suggest) ATI were to choose to sell their products at a higher price, they would suffer a loss in total revenue and profits due to the availability of a substitute (nVidia) which affects their own demand. Both firms are fully aware of this, and therefore DO price their products as competitively as possible; if the VGA industry were truly formed as you suggest it to be, the two companies would be able to charge exuberant amounts for graphics cards and not suffer due to perfectly inelastic per-firm demand; this is most certainly not the case. While a two-firm industry (more accurately named a duopoly than oligopoly) has a perfectly inelastic aggregate demand, each firm has a limited demand curve (not perfectly inelastic, perhaps only slightly above unit elastic) which is dependent both on the other firm's competing products and the market health in general. There are even other firms (albeit smaller ones like Intel and Matrox) in the graphics card industry, which makes it more of a monopolistic competition than an oligopoly anyway; new companies may freely enter the market provided that they can produce products which rival the leaders' performance-per-dollar. Intel has already shown with their integrated graphics chipsets that this is possible, and are seeking to enter the mainstream and enthusiast graphics market soon (see here).

Furthermore, the 4870x2 (or R700) has its own market model which is not identical to ATIs as a whole. So, not only is it in price-to-performance competition with nVidia's competing products, but also with ATI's other graphics cards. If ATI chooses to charge $800 for the R700, consumers will gladly purchase 2 4870x1 cards instead.



In short, demand affects any type of firm in a market economy; the fact that oligopolistic firms can earn a bit more profit due to having a larger share of the market is irrelevant; the market is still a market. If there was zero demand for graphics cards, both companies would go out of business just as quickly as if there were a million firms in the graphics card industry. If one firm decides to start charging a $500 premium on all of their cards, the consumers can easily choose to buy from the other firm instead. ATI and nVidia both maximize profits by producing and pricing at a point determined by their respective production costs (a firm's "supply curve") and their respective demand, which is derived from both the market's demand in general (i.e. how many people want/would buy a graphics card in the first place) and their competitor's substitute product. A particular product (say the R700) is also subject to substitution-effect demand elasticity from the same producer's other products (ATI's other graphics cards). So yes, ATI could choose to charge an exuberant amount for the R700, but the would-be buyers will simply buy GTX280s or some other ATI card (4870s in crossfire?) and ATI would lose money on the R700. ATI isn't stupid and won't willingly choose to make less profit by ignoring market demand.


I seriously doubt your claim to being an economics student, as anyone who has been through even a high school microeconomics class would know this. Please refrain from attacking the casual remarks of others unless you want it for yourself, and don't start boasting about your would-be qualifications that are totally irrelevant to the topic. Go troll somewhere else, please.

Quote:
Well i thought i'd cut down the guy who thought he knew some economics
...irony?
Edited by CiDaemon - 7/6/08 at 12:19am
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post #65 of 103
Quote:
Originally Posted by gtarmanrob View Post
as for benches, yes please. i want hard proof that a 4870X2 will perform 15% faster than Crossfire 4870's, given they are technically the same concept.
The HD3870X2 performs better than the HD3870's in crossfire under nearly every condition. I'm sure that with the way the HD4870X2 is supposed to share resources between the GPUs, it should much better than crossfired HD4870's.
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post #66 of 103
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brutuz View Post
Uhh...

My 128bit bus on the RAM can handle 2Gb, and other's have handled 8Gb, so stop talkin' fake stuff man!
Can't a 32-bit bus handle 2GB of memory at one time? 64-bit handles a heck of a lot?
post #67 of 103
Quote:
Originally Posted by Domino View Post
Can't a 32-bit bus handle 2GB of memory at one time? 64-bit handles a heck of a lot?
post #68 of 103
Quote:
Originally Posted by a1161979 View Post
Well i thought i'd cut down the guy who thought he knew some economics :swearing:

In noob language he was wrong about his supply and demand business because of what i said Anyway ignore me im an economics student and were all a sad bunch

DUDE!! he was commenting one SOMEONE ELSES QUOTE.. i understand you had been waiting to use all those words, just like a lawyer waits to use all the ones he knows. but that wasn't the right time.
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post #69 of 103
Quote:
Originally Posted by Domino View Post
Can't a 32-bit bus handle 2GB of memory at one time? 64-bit handles a heck of a lot?
Technically, the bus width doesn't inherently determine how much memory can be accessed per any given time period...and the use of the word "handle" is a bit ambiguous. The amount of memory that can be transmitted through a parallel memory bus is equal to the bus width (in octet bytes, so 512 bits / 8 = 32 bytes on the 4870) multiplied by the actual memory clock frequency in MHz, producing a result in bytes/second (or MB/GB per second...).

So for example, given the 4870 which operates at a RAM frequency of 900Mhz and a bus width of 32 bytes (256 bits as advertised, 8 bits per octet byte) the 4870 has a "theoretical" or "actual" memory bandwidth of 28,800hz (28.8 MHz). However, with GDDR5, the numbers change a bit; the effective (or performance-determining) memory bandwidth is the actual bandwidth multiplied by 2 (due to the striping applied to paired RAM chips, think RAM in RAID 0) then multiplied by 2 again (due to GDDR5's architecture) producing an effective bandwidth of 115.2 GB/second.

Compared to the GTX 260, which has a 448-bit bus but only uses GDDR3:
(448 bits / 8) = 56 byte bus capacity
Memory speed = 1000 MHz
(56 bytes * 1000 MHz) = 56 MB/sec actual
Multiplied by two for RAM striping, we get an effective bandwidth of 112 GB/sec.

Because the GTX 260 (and 280 for that matter) doesn't use GDDR5, it doesn't get the second x2 multiplier for effective bandwidth. Thus, the 4870 can "handle" more memory per second than the GTX260, even though the 4870 only has a 256-bit RAM bus versus the GTX260's 448-bit one. Note that the GTX280 has a 512-bit bus, so it does edge out the lead over the 4870, but not by much.

Because of the design of ATI's memory bus (U-shaped, surrounding the core on three sides) and the nature of GDDR5, the 256-bit bus on the 4800 series acts as if it were 512-bit, doubling effective memory bandwidth for a ratio of 4:1 effective to actual (in contrast to the 2:1 ratio of nVidia's competitor cards). With this in mind, the GTX260's 448-bit bus is effectively weaker than the bus on the 4800 series, despite the oft-quoted bus width difference.

Thus, those quoting the doubled bus size on the GTX260/280 over the HD4870 as an indicator of better performance are totally inaccurate; while the GTX280 does have a bit more effective memory bandwidth than the 4870, it's due to the faster memory clock, not the bus size difference; in contrast, the GTX260 actually has less memory bandwidth than the 4870 because of the differences between using GDDR3 with a conventional "I-shaped" memory bus and GDDR5 with ATI's "U-shaped" one.


The point is,the 4870 can transfer over 100 GB of memory per second and the 4850 isn't too far behind...so moving from 512mb to 1gb on a R770 card isn't exactly overloading the memory bus. ;-)


---
P.S. Fun fact: One "Hertz" (Hz) isn't really anything. A hertz (yes, the singular form is "hertz" also ) is a pseudo-unit for "per second". So, 1 byte multiplied by 1 hz = one byte per second. Hertz means nothing until paired with another dimensional unit (be it a byte, meter, liter, joule, or whatever).
Edited by CiDaemon - 7/6/08 at 1:05am
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post #70 of 103
In my humble opinion,the hypothesize is congruent to the ambiguity of the transferred state of the pulchritudinous GDDR5.....I concur

I have no clue what that means, but it was fun to type
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