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[dvHW] Intel Larrabee has 32 Pentium-based cores? - Page 6

post #51 of 63
Quote:
Originally Posted by darksideleader View Post
so were looking at a new workstation graphics card instead? its not like we'll have ray tracing games by then.
Did you know that the old Wolfenstein 3D used raytracing? It wasn't in the same detail as we'd expect today of course (exactly one ray per pixel), but they did.
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post #52 of 63
i see air coolers taking up yet another pci slot
post #53 of 63
Quote:
Originally Posted by darkcloud89 View Post
You're right in saying that x86 cores are terrible for doing traditional graphics work, but the aim of Larabee is ray tracing.

I think right now it's probably too early to say whether or not this will take off in games. Given the amount of extra processing power required to do it, the visual result isn't that much better. We also don't know how much work AMD/Nvidia are putting into ray-tracing and getting it to run on their hardware. Intel is just being the most vocal about it because it's what Larabee will do best, and it's their main selling point since there's the chance that Larabee will still be terrible at handling graphics the way GPUs do right now.
No, no, and no. Gelsinger mentioned ray tracing as a new 'killer app' for Larrabee - just like the petaflop computer he mentioned they were beaten to the punch. That doesn't mean it's the 'focus', just one of many things it can do.

Here it is, straight from the horses' mouth:

http://arstechnica.com/journals/hard...-rasterization
http://home.comcast.net/~tom_forsyth...20raytracing]]

Quote:
I've been trying to keep quiet, but I need to get one thing very clear. Larrabee is going to render DirectX and OpenGL games through rasterisation, not through raytracing.

I'm not sure how the message got so muddled. I think in our quest to just keep our heads down and get on with it, we've possibly been a bit too quiet. So some comments about exciting new rendering tech got misinterpreted as our one and only plan. Larrabee's tech enables many fascinating possibilities, and we're excited by all of them. But this current confusion has got a lot of developers worried about us breaking their games and forcing them to change the way they do things. That's not the case, and I apologise for any panic.

There's only one way to render the huge range of DirectX and OpenGL games out there, and that's the way they were designed to run - the conventional rasterisation pipeline. That has been the goal for the Larrabee team from day one, and it continues to be the primary focus of the hardware and software teams. We take triangles, we rasterise them, we do Z tests, we do pixel shading, we write to a framebuffer. There's plenty of room within that pipeline for innovation to last us for many years to come. It's done very nicely for over a quarter of a century, and there's plenty of life in the old thing yet.

There's no doubt Larrabee is going to be the world's most awesome raytracer. It's going to be the world's most awesome chip at a lot of heavy computing tasks - that's the joy of total programmability combined with serious number-crunching power. But that is cool stuff for those that want to play with wacky tech. We're not assuming everybody in the world will do this, we're not forcing anyone to do so, and we certainly can't just do it behind their backs and expect things to work - that would be absurd. Raytracing on Larrabee is a fascinating research project, it's an exciting new way of thinking about rendering scenes, just like splatting or voxels or any number of neat ideas, but it is absolutely not the focus of Larrabee's primary rendering capabilities, and never has been - not even for a moment.

We are totally focussed on making the existing (and future) DX and OGL pipelines go fast using far more conventional methods. When we talk about the rendering pipeline changing beyond what people currently know, we're talking about using something a lot less radical than raytracing. Still very exciting for game developers - stuff they've been asking for for ages that otherIHVs have completely failed to deliver on. There's some very exciting changes to the existing graphics pipelines coming up if developers choose to enable the extra quality and consistency that Larrabee can offer. But these are incremental changes, and they will remain completely under game developers' control - if they don't want to use them, we will look like any other fast video card. We would not and could not change the rendering behaviour of the existingAPIs.

I'll probably get in trouble for this post, but it's driving me nuts seeing people spin their wheels on the results of misunderstandings. There's so much cool stuff on the way that we're excited about, and we think you're going to love them too.
Let's say ATI's 48xx series wasn't out yet, and all we had seen were the Ruby and LightStage demos, all sorts of voxels and ray tracing and global illumination, it would be like saying that was all ATI's new card would do, and that it'd be crap at any current games. Completely silly.

Intel has a video on their site in which other developers state that their first focus is on games, and that they're mostly in contact with game developers at this point, all of the other stuff taking a back seat. To think that Intel would develop a games-focused graphics chip and release it as an uncompetitive product, I think that's just bonkers!
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post #54 of 63
I really want to see a demo of Larrabee. Intel loves to demo tech early and they have been talking about it plenty. Lets see it in action!
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post #55 of 63
this will probably be more expensive and will probably run hotter than a 4870X2, or a pair of them for that matter.
Haven't we already figured out that with the right drivers, GPUs could be used muuuuch more efficiently than CPUs?
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post #56 of 63
Quote:
Originally Posted by nategr8ns View Post
this will probably be more expensive and will probably run hotter than a 4870X2, or a pair of them for that matter.
Haven't we already figured out that with the right drivers, GPUs could be used muuuuch more efficiently than CPUs?
Yeah and have you seen those drivers yet?

This is Intel's whole approach with Larrabee, easier to program for.
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post #57 of 63
I don't doubt that Larrabee will be able to handle a rasterization graphics pipeline to be able to render current DX/OGL games, but I am skeptical on the performance that will be seen from it. If they're really designing this with the "focus" on raster graphics, then why all the ray tracing demos? Why say GPUs are dead? If it's really good with handling current games, then show that off. That will probably get people more excited and then they wouldn't even have the "it's all raytracing" perception problem that this guy is complaining about.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bowman View Post
Let's say ATI's 48xx series wasn't out yet, and all we had seen were the Ruby and LightStage demos, all sorts of voxels and ray tracing and global illumination, it would be like saying that was all ATI's new card would do, and that it'd be crap at any current games. Completely silly.
This is a completely different situation. Before it was even out, it was pretty much a guarantee that RV7xx was at the very least loosely based on RV6xx, the capabilities of which were pretty well known. On the other hand, Larrabee is coming from virtually no experience in gaming graphics worth speaking of, and I think this warrants an increased level of skepticism.

Sure, this could turn out to be the fastest graphics card ever seen. But the point remains that if traditional raster graphics are the "focus", then show a demo of a current game running on Larrabee that doesn't use raytracing. For something that's really their "focus", there seems to be a huge failure on their part at getting the word out.

Quote:
Intel has a video on their site in which other developers state that their first focus is on games, and that they're mostly in contact with game developers at this point, all of the other stuff taking a back seat.
I took a quick look, but I could hardly find anything about Larrabee on their site much less this specific video. But it would be interesting to know exactly which developers they're talking to, because it's not going to matter much if their list doesn't include any major developers.

Quote:
To think that Intel would develop a games-focused graphics chip and release it as an uncompetitive product, I think that's just bonkers!
Despite what they claim, I don't think that Larrabee is intended to be a games-focused chip at all. I think the target and focus is the HPC / GPGPU because not only is there more money to be earned there, but it's where Intel actually stands to lose some ground. Both AMD's FireStream and Nvidia's Tesla pose a threat to the use of Intel CPUs for certain tasks, and Larrabee is their answer to ensure it doesn't happen. This is the reason it uses an x86 subset so that when given the choice between FireStream, Tesla, and Larrabee, the ease and familiarity with x86 make Larrabee look like a better choice. If Intel chooses to demo something that will show me otherwise, then I will change my mind.
post #58 of 63
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cheetos316 View Post
If the cores are the same Pentium cores as the ones the C2Ds are based on, then this thing is basically a native 32 core chip? R700 will have over 2TFlops and once it is migrated to 45/40nm, it might have around the same TDP...
Yeah, sounds like native, but have in mind that RV770 is like 800 cores(SP) native.

The good thing is that Larrabee sounds like can be used as a general purpose CPU.

PS. The password crackers would love this
Edited by metala - 7/6/08 at 2:24pm
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post #59 of 63
Quote:
This is a completely different situation. Before it was even out, it was pretty much a guarantee that RV7xx was at the very least loosely based on RV6xx, the capabilities of which were pretty well known. On the other hand, Larrabee is coming from virtually no experience in gaming graphics worth speaking of, and I think this warrants an increased level of skepticism.

Sure, this could turn out to be the fastest graphics card ever seen. But the point remains that if traditional raster graphics are the "focus", then show a demo of a current game running on Larrabee that doesn't use raytracing. For something that's really their "focus", there seems to be a huge failure on their part at getting the word out.
We haven't even seen a single demo of Larrabee, ray tracing or not.

Quote:
I took a quick look, but I could hardly find anything about Larrabee on their site much less this specific video. But it would be interesting to know exactly which developers they're talking to, because it's not going to matter much if their list doesn't include any major developers.
I couldn't find this video again, it wasn't labelled 'Larrabee' with big letters, it was mentioned as a by-note 'can we use the L word' kind of thing. They don't advertise or talk about Larrabee a whole lot yet.

edit - I found it: http://softwarecommunity.intel.com/v...e.aspx?fn=1515

Quote:
Despite what they claim, I don't think that Larrabee is intended to be a games-focused chip at all.
Yeah, basically they're lying. Better go get the dust off that tin foil hat.

I'll reserve my judgement until they refer to it as a SPARC/Cell competitor. Currently all it's been about is 'visual computing' (fancy name for graphics) and games, so I'll just assume that.
Edited by bowman - 7/6/08 at 3:29pm
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post #60 of 63
Larrabee would make me a happy camper when I have to do Finite Element Analysis.
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