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post #11151 of 12360
if i where to install a 580 do you guys thing it will bottle neck a lot biggrin.gif
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post #11152 of 12360
Yes, definitely. I've already thoroughly shown this to be the case even with just two 8800GT SLI, never mind
something way up the scale as a 580. See my extensive results:

http://www.sgidepot.co.uk/misc/tests-jj.txt
http://www.sgidepot.co.uk/misc/aebench.html
http://www.sgidepot.co.uk/misc/viewperf.txt
http://www.sgidepot.co.uk/misc/pctests.html
http://www.sgidepot.co.uk/misc/stalkercopbench.txt
http://www.sgidepot.co.uk/misc/uniginebench.txt
http://www.sgidepot.co.uk/misc/uniginebench2.txt
http://www.sgidepot.co.uk/misc/uniginebench3.txt
http://www.sgidepot.co.uk/misc/x3tcbench.txt
http://www.sgidepot.co.uk/misc/cinebench.html
http://www.sgidepot.co.uk/misc/ptboats.txt
http://www.sgidepot.co.uk/misc/callofjuarez.txt

If you like I would be happy to run some tests on whatever config I have that I can put together to match
your's. I already know that my two GTX 560Tis in SLI are better than a 670 or a 580, so I can put them onto
a 6000+ setup, or a 965, etc., but there's enough data already from which to make firm conclusions.

Ian.

PS. Having said all that, it does to some extent depend on the game, detail level, resolution, etc. For example,
X3TC is thoroughly CPU-bound, so a highly overclocked Clarkdale runs really well vs. even a half-decent
quad-core. It's all about balance, baring in mind what your particular games favour.
    
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post #11153 of 12360
Quote:
Originally Posted by ozlay View Post

if i where to install a 580 do you guys thing it will bottle neck a lot biggrin.gif
Yes it would. 580 is ideally the highest you want to go with a 965 or similar Phenom II. Anything more would not net you any real gains in performance.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mapesdhs View Post

Yes, definitely. I've already thoroughly shown this to be the case even with just two 8800GT SLI, never mind
something way up the scale as a 580. See my extensive results:
For some extensive testing ctrl+f 'm2n' didn't net me but one result. Am I to believe you did this testing without actually testing these boards and are simply making assumptions based on similar testing? Because I've had 8800GT, 8800GT SLI, GTX 460, GTX 460 SLI and currently a 560Ti 448 core on this board with my current 965 and I can most certainly tell you there was a huge difference in performance from 8800GT SLI on up. Just a single GTX 460 net me better performance than the 8800GT SLI. GTX 460 SLI net an even bigger gain. The only reason I upgraded from the GTX 460 SLI was because I was experiencing lag/stuttering in GPU intensive games. Either SLI or the lack of VRAM(768MB) was the culprit since upgrading to a 560ti 448 core with 1280MB of VRAM fixed all the issues I was having. I wouldn't necessarily say I saw a real "performance" boost, but much smoother gameplay and overall stability.

Sorry to knock on your extensive testing and results, but in my firsthand experience with an M2N-SLI board over 5 years, your conclusions are wrong.



OH and I wanted to say I have finally upgraded to 8GB of RAM after all these years. It will be nice to have a memory buffer during RAM/VRAM intensive gaming that drags my PC to its knees while attempting to multi-task. lol

Got lucky and found a guy on ebay selling the exact RAM I have now. So they are matching sets. woot
Edited by Fossil - 4/10/13 at 3:54pm
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post #11154 of 12360
Hey guys,
The wealth of info on here is awesome! I just installed a new Phenom II 965, and thought it would be plug and play with the new BIOS update(5002). At first my clock speed in the BIOS was at 880mhz, a little troubling as I was expecting the stock speed of 3.4ghz. I'm new to manually adjusting things in the BIOS, but with some tinkering and searching the thread, I got it to 3.2ghz by setting the multiplier to x16 with everything else left alone.

So how can I get the stock(advertised) speed of 3.4ghz? I attached some shots of the speeds and temps and what not. I'm slightly paranoid that I'm missing something, only cause I'm new to this and I don't want to break anything! And I apologize for another noob question on this immense thread...


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post #11155 of 12360
Quote:
Originally Posted by ozlay View Post

decided to overclock some more smile.gif http://valid.canardpc.com/2739669

I'm jealous of you m2n32sli owners
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post #11156 of 12360
Fossil writes:
> For some extensive testing ctrl+f 'm2n' didn't net me but one result. ...

The 965 in question isn't on an M2N board. biggrin.gif (I have an M3N-Ht Deluxe, a Gigabyte
board and a couple of others). Alas a lot of the data is not yet up. Point is, I know
how the 965 compares to other CPUs (6000+, etc., and numerous Intels), I've done
lots of tests with those, so one can extrapolate. You're right in that I don't have data
for an exactly comparable config on my site yet, but I can put such a setup together
easily enough for some quick tests, stick a 965 on the M3N-HT with two EVGA FTWs,
that'd be the same gfx power as a 580.


> Am I to believe you did this testing without actually testing these boards ...

The same chip on a different board will be much the same. If anything my results
might be an overestimate since a couple of the boards use DDR3 I think, though the
M3N-HT is DDR2 (I bought a GSkill 2x2GB DDR2/1066 kit for testing such boards).


> ... Because I've had 8800GT, 8800GT SLI, GTX 460, GTX 460 SLI and currently a 560Ti 448 core ...

I have 8800GT SLI (both 512MB and 1GB) plus some spares. I have 9800GT
SLI, both 512MB and 1GB. I have more than a dozen different GTX 460s (all but
one are 1GB or 2GB); the pile includes three V2 cards (which are a lot better than
people assume), three 850MHz EVGA FTWs, etc.. I also have three 5850s, four
4870s (two with 512MB, two with 1GB), two 3870 512MB, a 4670 1GB, two 3850
512MB AGPs, X1650, X1950, a whole stack of Quadro cards (up to the 4000 2GB),
two 560Tis in my main gaming PC, and some other cards I can't recall offhand.

In an equivalent manner, I have a large number of boards (both Intel and AMD),
and an equivalent no. of CPUs. The only chip I've not yet obtained that I still want
to find is a 1090T, but I do have four 965s, two 6000+, a 7750, 3400+, X2 250, Athlon
II X4 635, and at least a dozen others high & low.

I have more than thirty TRUE coolers (and others such as the TRUE Black and
Venomous-X), more than forty SSDs (mostly OCZ, but also Samsung, Corsair, etc.),
far too many Thermaltake Toughpower PSUs, oodles of RAM in all the boards &
grud knows what else. I must have done over a thousand tests by now. :}

What I haven't yet had is the time to write up much of the results. Work/family stuff
often gets in the way.


> ... and I can most certainly tell you there was a huge difference in performance from 8800GT SLI on up. ...

I was referring to an equivalent example where a 6000+ limits how well a board
can exploit two 8800GTs (when I moved the same 8800GTs onto an i7 860 board,
performance almost doubled in some cases). The same concept applies. It's a
simple extrapolation, but as I said to the op I'd be happy to setup something
relevant.


> ... Either SLI or the lack of VRAM(768MB) ...

You were using 768MB cards? No wonder then, they have fewer ROPs, a narrower
mem bus & less bandwidth. I get excellent performance with 1GB cards in SLI.

One thing about the 768MB cards though; like the V2 1GB card, the 768 model oc's
like crazy. My Palit 675MHz card runs just fine at a fairly impressive 865MHz. My V2s
can run ok at 1025MHz. Highly oc'd 768 cards can't make up for the lesser VRAM
of course if that becomes critical.


> ...I wouldn't necessarily say I saw a real "performance" boost, but much smoother gameplay and overall stability.

That's often the case, though as I'm sure you know it very much depends on the
game. I've been surprised to see Crysis2 running with no stuttering at all on my GTX
560Ti SLI setup, even with everything on Ultra, 1920x1200, 16xQ CSAA, DX11 pack, HD
texture pack, etc. I think some games handle it better than others, eg. Stalker's engine
is definitely not so good, it stutters somewhat even with a single card sometimes.

I did some tests with 1GB vs. 2GB cards; given the available RAM, Crysis2 will
grab 1350MB at the above settings with 8x SCAA, dropping to 1240MB at High, yet
it plays fine on two 1GB cards SLI.

YMMV as they say, but sure, it doesn't surprise me that you get much smoother
gaming from that 560Ti (which isn't really a 560Ti of course, it's a revamp of
another card, thus the odd RAM size), that's bound to be the case. But the guy
asked about a 580; I'd be delighted to be wrong, but I don't think a 965 can get
the best out of a card that powerful. I don't have a 580 yet (still hunting),
but I can test with my two 560Tis which are faster than a 580 or a 670 (though
testing with two of the EVGA FTWs would be easier). What do you get for 3DMark11
with your 560Ti 1280MB? Here's mine (not with a 965 please note):

http://www.3dmark.com/3dm11/6037434

I know someone who has a 670, his gfx score was about 9K with an IB 3570K.


> OH and I wanted to say I have finally upgraded to 8GB of RAM after all these years. ...

I finally did that too last week. Shame in a way, my 2x2GB was an expensive CL7
kit when it was new. Replaced with 2x4GB (not an M2N board btw; it's an Asrock
P55 with an 875K). Ironic, my gaming PC has been plodding along with 4GB, while
the 3930K setup has 64GB. biggrin.gif

Btw, my M2N board is the M2N32 WS Professional, with a 6000+, currently stuck in
a rut as there's a catch22 with fitting a 965 on this board; I need PCIX support, but
the mod BIOS isn't compatible last I read. Think I saw an update later saying
someone had sorted this out, but I've not looked into it closely yet. Thus, I've been
trying 965s in other boards to obtain the results I was looking for.

Ian.
Edited by mapesdhs - 4/11/13 at 7:07am
    
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post #11157 of 12360
Quote:
I was referring to an equivalent example where a 6000+ limits how well a board
can exploit two 8800GTs (when I moved the same 8800GTs onto an i7 860 board,
performance almost doubled in some cases). The same concept applies. It's a
simple extrapolation, but as I said to the op I'd be happy to setup something
relevant.
Sorry, it appeared based on your reply you were responding to ozlay. Which his current setup has a 965. It must have been an earlier post the 6000+ was brought up, because I didn't see the connection with these last few posts.
Quote:
YMMV as they say, but sure, it doesn't surprise me that you get much smoother
gaming from that 560Ti (which isn't really a 560Ti of course, it's a revamp of
another card, thus the odd RAM size), that's bound to be the case. But the guy
asked about a 580; I'd be delighted to be wrong, but I don't think a 965 can get
the best out of a card that powerful. I don't have a 580 yet (still hunting),
but I can test with my two 560Tis which are faster than a 580 or a 670 (though
testing with two of the EVGA FTWs would be easier). What do you get for 3DMark11
with your 560Ti 1280MB? Here's mine (not with a 965 please note):
You're not wrong. 580 will bottleneck the 965 a bit. It just won't be as bad as some older CPU's. My next GPU upgrade will require a CPU upgrade so this is EOL as far as this current build goes. I'm not sure what my 3Dmark11 score is. I know I have ran it in the past, but definitely not on this setup. I logged into the 3Dmark website and I only have 3Dmark06 results when I had my older 8800GT's, haha.
Quote:
I finally did that too last week. Shame in a way, my 2x2GB was an expensive CL7
kit when it was new. Replaced with 2x4GB (not an M2N board btw; it's an Asrock
P55 with an 875K). Ironic, my gaming PC has been plodding along with GB, while
the 3930K setup has 64GB. biggrin.gif
One of the main reasons I put it aside for so long is I know that filling all DIMM slots on these older boards can create issues with overclock stability. However, my OC has always been mild since the Deluxe version of M2N isn't the greatest overclocker thanks to less than stellar VRM's. I haven't extensively gamed yet, but I know that it'll greatly benefit after long gaming sessions when the PC bogs down from no memory.
Edited by Fossil - 4/11/13 at 5:24am
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post #11158 of 12360
Fossil writes:
> Sorry, it appeared based on your reply you were responding to ozlay.

TBH I kinda was. wink.gif The 6000+ I refered to is my own, ie. when I had
an 8800GT with a 6000+ on my WS board (they're actually still on the
board, though it's a different 8800GT now); adding a 2nd 8800GT was nothing
like as effective as simply moving the single card onto a P55 board.

Do we know at what clock ozlay's 965 is running? As high as possible will
of course help a lot. I notice he has an NH-D14 which is good.


> You're not wrong. 580 will bottleneck the 965 a bit. It just won't be as
> bad as some older CPU's. ...

Very true. 8) Even the higher base clock of the 965 helps a fair bit over a 6000+.


> ... My next GPU upgrade will require a CPU upgrade
> so this is EOL as far as this current build goes. ...

As mentioned, my current gaming PC has an 875K. I had been pondering a
2500K or something for the next setup (bagged another Maximus IV Extreme
off eBay for just 135 UKP), but I was surprised with recent testing to see
how well the 875K does against a 3570K for the 3DMark11/13 physics tests,
so instead I might just employ the 5GHz 2700K config I already have (so
far it's just been for benchmarking & AE/CUDA research), or try and get a
used 2600K/2700K for the spare M4E. The question of course is how high up
a GPU has to be before the 875K finally becomes the limiting factor, which is
why I'd like to get a couple of 670s or something to find out, though two 580
3GB cards would also be ok I guess (newer AMDs are still too pricey 2nd-hand
to consider). Strict budget limit though, so sometimes it's a lengthy eBay
waiting game. biggrin.gif Took me a year to get a QX9650 for a decent price...

If one wished to stay with AMD on the CPU side, I suppose the conumdrum
is whether to move to a Ph2 X6, or try a BD/PD despite the performance &
power issues. This is a typically revealing article:

http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/fx-8350-core-i7-3770k-gaming-bottleneck,3407.html

Varies by game as always, but the conclusions are hard to ignore. What do
you think your next system will be?

This is why I want to obtain a 1090T, really interested in how it behaves.
Article reviews always use newer games, which doesn't give a complete picture.


> on this setup. I logged into the 3Dmark website and I only have 3Dmark06
> results when I had my older 8800GT's, haha.

biggrin.gif:D

Btw, if you try running the 3DMark13 tests, note that, if you have it in
your BIOS, HPET must be enabled in order for the Firestrike physics test
to function correctly.


> One of the main reasons I put it aside for so long is I know that filling
> all DIMM slots on these older boards can create issues with overclock

I was wondering about that too. My old 4GB kit is a really nice Mushkin
Blackline DDR3/2000 7-10-8-27 (PN 996902). It's a CL7 kit, which nicely
matches the naturally lower latency of P55; I tried to find a 2nd kit,
but nobody has them anymore. In the end I bought some RAM for my other
systems which allowed a huge RAM musical chairs across 5 boards, finally
freeing up a Mushkin Redline DDR3/2133 kit for the GPC; only rated for
9-11-10-28 at 2133, but I know from other boards the kit will do better
than that, and atm it's just at 1900 (not yet finalised the 875K oc,
recently changed from an 870).

The real test will be the i3 550 @ 4.7, on a different identical board.
I'll be maxing that out with two of these Redline kits. No idea what that
will do to the oc.


> stability. However, my OC has always been mild since the Deluxe version
> of M2N isn't the greatest overclocker thanks to less than stellar VRM's.

Have you ever read anything about how the M3N compares to the M2N?


> I haven't extensively gamed yet, but I know that it'll greatly benefit
> after long gaming sessions when the PC bogs down from no memory.

Are there particular games that hog up RAM? I suppose there are bound to
be a few with memory leaks, etc.


I'm just pulling the two EVGA FTWs off my X58 board (Asrock X58 Extreme6),
after that I'll put them on the M3N-HT, see how it goes. First though, the
HT's OS is still on an old 250GB SATA, so time to move it onto an SSD, then
change the chip to a 965 (most recent testing was with a 6000+). Think I'll
take the opportunity to change the TRUE to a TRUE Black, ended up with a
couple spare after bagging two Venomous-X units.

Amazing what one can get from eBay with a bit of effort. biggrin.gif The 875K only
cost me 103. One of the Venomous-X units was just 25.


I'm using my normal desktop now (an SGI Fuel), so I have access to my
main files. These are some of the mbds I've obtained so far:
Code:
  Gigabyte GA-MA790FX-DQ6 790FX
  ASUS M3N-HT Deluxe
  Asrock P45XE
  EVGA P55 FTW
  ASUS M3N78 SE AM2+ (CPU testing only)
  Asrock X58 Extreme6
  ASUS P7P55 WS Supercomputer
  ASUS Maximus IV Extreme (2 of)
  ASUS P9X79 WS
  Gigabyte GA-Z68XP-UD4
  XFX 790i Ultra SLI
  Asrock P55 Deluxe (4 of)
  Asrock P55 Extreme
  Gigabyte GA-X58A-UD3R (2 of)

plus a few older/lesser boards not relevant for benchmarking. As yet I
don't have any BD/PD boards; I'll leave that for later in the year.

Here's my CPU list atm, in no particular order:
Code:
  E8400 E0 3GHz
  Core2Quad Q6600 2.4GHz S775 G0
  Core i5 670 3.46GHz S1156
  Core2Duo E6850 3GHz
  PentiumD 945 3.4GHz S775 D0 dual-core, no HT
  Pentium4/HT 3.4GHz S775  (1-core with HT, SL7PY)
  Phenom II X4 965 3.4GHz  (several)
  Athlon II X2 250 3GHz AM3
  Athlon II X4 635 2.9GHz AM3
  Athlon X2 7750 2.7GHz
  Athlon II X2 240e 2.8GHz AM3
  i3 550  (several)
  i7 2700K
  Pentium G840 2.8GHz (SandyBridge, 2-core, no HT/Turbo)
  i3 540  (several)
  i5 760  (two of)
  i7 870  (two of)
  i7 875K
  Athlon64 X2 6000+
  i7 990X
  QX9650
  i7 3930K C2

One of my zones of mayhem... smile.gif

http://www.sgidepot.co.uk/misc/pcbenchmarking2.jpg


Btw, what does the 'tape mod' refer to in your sig re the CPU cooler?

I'm surprised you don't use an SSD, it makes such a difference to game
loading and helps prevent stuttering as games stream in data. Recently I
fitted a Samsung 840 250GB to my brother's P55 setup (ie. just SATA2), it
cut the loading time for the main game he plays from 3.5 minutes to just
7 seconds. biggrin.gif (the old disk was a WD VR 10K 150GB, ie. no slouch in
mechanical-land). I've not yet had the time to run my SSD tests on AMD
boards, but here's my data so far (NVIDIA chipset performs worst):

http://www.sgidepot.co.uk/misc/ssd_tests.txt

Ian.

PS. I took some Crysis2 pics last night for a friend. Ahh such fun blowing stuff up. biggrin.gif
    
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post #11159 of 12360
im at 4ghz iv ran a few tests at 4.1 and such but i like it to be 4ghz instead 4.125ghz i like evan more then odd biggrin.gif http://valid.canardpc.com/2766141
Edited by ozlay - 4/11/13 at 1:15pm
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post #11160 of 12360
Quote:
TBH I kinda was. wink.gif The 6000+ I refered to is my own, ie. when I had
an 8800GT with a 6000+ on my WS board (they're actually still on the
board, though it's a different 8800GT now); adding a 2nd 8800GT was nothing
like as effective as simply moving the single card onto a P55 board.
I had a 5600BE... hated the thing. Couldn't push past 3.1ghz stable. But for what it was worth at the time, nice CPU. Upgrading to the 940BE blew it away. The invisible Phenom II support on the M2N board is the only reason I've kept it for so long.
Quote:
Do we know at what clock ozlay's 965 is running? As high as possible will
of course help a lot. I notice he has an NH-D14 which is good.
Not sure, but given he has the same board I do I doubt he's got an OC higher than 3.8ghz unless he has a golden chip.
Quote:
As mentioned, my current gaming PC has an 875K. I had been pondering a
2500K or something for the next setup (bagged another Maximus IV Extreme
off eBay for just 135 UKP), but I was surprised with recent testing to see
how well the 875K does against a 3570K for the 3DMark11/13 physics tests,
so instead I might just employ the 5GHz 2700K config I already have (so
far it's just been for benchmarking & AE/CUDA research), or try and get a
used 2600K/2700K for the spare M4E. The question of course is how high up
a GPU has to be before the 875K finally becomes the limiting factor, which is
why I'd like to get a couple of 670s or something to find out, though two 580
3GB cards would also be ok I guess (newer AMDs are still too pricey 2nd-hand
to consider). Strict budget limit though, so sometimes it's a lengthy eBay
waiting game. biggrin.gif Took me a year to get a QX9650 for a decent price...
The older stuff is still really good despite what a lot of people think. They are so wrapped on believing newer = better or that 10% more performance is going to make them play better at FPS games. My Phenom II has held up great, but the GPU bottleneck is what is going to force me to upgrade once my 448 core can no longer play games on high settings. I don't really see it happening for a while though. Games aren't pushing new limits and newer video cards are beginning to slow down in production thanks to harder R&D for smaller chips.

The 9xxx series chips are really nice. Sucks they are so overpriced. It's like trying to find Earthbound or Crono Trigger for the SNES.
Quote:
What do
you think your next system will be?
Really not sure yet. I probably won't stick with AMD this time around as there is no longer a "high-end" CPU market for them. Unless I manage to win the Ultimate rig contest, then that build is in my sig. tongue.gif
Quote:
Btw, if you try running the 3DMark13 tests, note that, if you have it in
your BIOS, HPET must be enabled in order for the Firestrike physics test
to function correctly.
That setting doesn't sound familiar. The latest 3Dmark I have run extensively is Unigine when I tested OC on my cards. What's the latest one that came out, Vantage? I think when I tried running that it closed on me and wouldn't finish. I was running older 306.97 drivers for the longest time, though. I have only recently updated to the most recent video drivers now that I have a newer 2nd video card to power my 2nd monitor. After a nice chat with Nvidia support I found out that older legacy cards(anything from 9000 series and older) are considered "legacy", which they removed support from after 307.xx drivers.
Quote:
Have you ever read anything about how the M3N compares to the M2N?
Can't say I have.
Quote:
Are there particular games that hog up RAM? I suppose there are bound to
be a few with memory leaks, etc.
There are a few. Crysis was notorious for doing this to me. Skyrim with visual mods tears my PC up. Planetside 2 can work a number on me as well. I haven't played any of these games extensively since getting my RAM installed yesterday, so I can't say if it has really helped. I just know my memory does get so low(quite frequently) that Windows Aero has to remind me by forcing me out of fullscreen games with that ridiculous pop-up that can't be disabled. mad.gif So if anything I just hope an extra 4GB of RAM is enough to keep that pop-up away for good.

And wow dude, you have quite the collection of computer parts. I'd like to do this more frequently as a hobby myself. If you happen to come across a Phenom II 980BE be sure to send it my way. thumb.gif I want to test it on this board and see if it'll play nicely (no one has that I know of).
Quote:
Btw, what does the 'tape mod' refer to in your sig re the CPU cooler?
It's literally what it sounds. I secured the sides of the cooler with non-adhesive duct tape to force the airflow to actually go through the cooler fins instead of dispersing out the sides. It's a more efficient. When I first bought the cooler I had just recently gotten the 940BE as well and didn't experience much of a temperature drop going from stock cooler to the Xigmatek and it really annoyed me. After enclosing the sides with tape it dropped my idle/load temps by 3-5C. So I have left it on there ever since. I used to change the tape about 3-4 times a year until I got my case set for positive air pressure. I don't even need to dust out the inside anymore, haha.
Quote:
I'm surprised you don't use an SSD, it makes such a difference to game
loading and helps prevent stuttering as games stream in data. Recently I
fitted a Samsung 840 250GB to my brother's P55 setup (ie. just SATA2), it
cut the loading time for the main game he plays from 3.5 minutes to just
7 seconds. biggrin.gif (the old disk was a WD VR 10K 150GB, ie. no slouch in
mechanical-land). I've not yet had the time to run my SSD tests on AMD
boards, but here's my data so far (NVIDIA chipset performs worst):
Believe me you're not the only one to tell me that. It's the last real upgrade I plan to make for this computer. The main reason I haven't upgraded is because, from what I read and was told was that a fresh format of the OS was necessary for an SSD install. I'm not a fan of formatting and still have my original win7 from 3+ years ago. I avoid formatting like the plague. It was only recently (earlier in this thread actually) that I was told a format was not needed and a simple flip of the ACHI enabled setting in the BIOS and making sure it was functioning before the install, would ensure I would not have any issues cloning the drive over from HDD to SSD.

On top of that I like having everything on one drive as it makes backing up a lot more convenient. So when I do go SSD it'll be at least a 512GB. So it's just a waiting game at this point for prices to go down.

EDIT: Oh speak of the devil, he posted. tongue.gif Nice OC on the chip. Just how stable is it though? That is quite a bit of voltage you're pumping through it. The VRM's on the Deluxe hate us with a passion so I would be pleasantly surprised if that was a rock solid OC.
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Sager NP8652
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