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[Engadget]Toyota to unveil its all-electric concept... - Page 5

post #41 of 56
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kamikaze127 View Post
This thing is ugly. I kinda like the Chevrolet Volt, though.

The Chevy volt isn't a complete disaster. It's a shame they had to saddle it with a 4 cylinder engine though. Replacing that engine with extra batteries could have tripled its 40 mile battery range. Instead they thought it necessary to give it a 600 mile range with a 15 gallon gas tank This will only encourage people to drive it like a regular car, neglecting to plug it in at night, and reducing their overall efficiency to ~50 MPG versus the 100+ on battery only.

Americans simply do not drive >100 miles often enough for it to warrant carrying around an entirely seperate powerplant...

It is a shame that we will likely never see the volt. General motors has shelved the building of a new plant which will make components for the car. I don't foresee them recovering to the point where they can renew building this "better than nothing hybrid".

They should have build the damn thing 10 years ago...
Edited by RonindeBeatrice - 12/24/08 at 7:32pm
    
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post #42 of 56
For most people in cities a car with a 40 mi range would be fine, as for those of us that live 15-20 miles from the closest town that could quickly become a problem.
    
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post #43 of 56
Quote:
Originally Posted by boydyboyd View Post

Q) How do you make Hydrogen?
A) You don't, you just separate it from whatever it has binded to.
Sorry but the main way Hydrogen is gathered is from water. And to separate it requires electrolysis which is electricity as well.

But i do agree Hydrogen is the future as well
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post #44 of 56
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zulli85 View Post
Buy American made cars please.
Check the VIN of any Japanese 'import' on a new car showroom right now. It's going to have a 1 in it, first digit, because it's actually cheaper to manufacture the car here and ship it back to Japan. You might get the odd 2 or 3(Canada and Mexico) as well.


Toyota, Honda, Nissan, they ALL have plants in the US. My pops actually delivers parts to the Smyrna, TN Nissan plant. Those 'imports' are as American as the Star Spangled Banner.



Quite literally the only thing Japanese on any of them is the nameplate.
Quote:
Originally Posted by RonindeBeatrice View Post

tl;dr: There is only one way forward: The electric car.

Or we put a fuel cell in the gas station and run the current piston engine off H2 gas? They run just fine on the stuff, all you need is a way to get it in there.

This is the kind of thinking that got us into this hole in the first place. I guarantee you, back in the Teens, they were saying "Gasoline is the only way forward". In the early 1900's, we had choices between the following:

Horse 'n Buggy
Bicycle
Motorcycle
gasoline car
electric car.


Bet you can't guess which one won...


Also, guys, they've already tried the fulll-electric car. It failed ass. Go look back in the early 1900's, back when people hated the piston engine. There were electric cars. They just didn't have the range, and that's going to continue to be the case unless someone finds some new elements that make superbatteries. Plus, I'm not going to plug my damned car in every night.
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post #45 of 56
Quote:
Originally Posted by TestECull View Post
Check the VIN of any Japanese 'import' on a new car showroom right now. It's going to have a 1 in it, first digit, because it's actually cheaper to manufacture the car here and ship it back to Japan. You might get the odd 2 or 3(Canada and Mexico) as well.


Toyota, Honda, Nissan, they ALL have plants in the US. My pops actually delivers parts to the Smyrna, TN Nissan plant. Those 'imports' are as American as the Star Spangled Banner.



Quite literally the only thing Japanese on any of them is the nameplate.



Or we put a fuel cell in the gas station and run the current piston engine off H2 gas? They run just fine on the stuff, all you need is a way to get it in there.

This is the kind of thinking that got us into this hole in the first place. I guarantee you, back in the Teens, they were saying "Gasoline is the only way forward". In the early 1900's, we had choices between the following:

Horse 'n Buggy
Bicycle
Motorcycle
gasoline car
electric car.


Bet you can't guess which one won...


Also, guys, they've already tried the fulll-electric car. It failed ass. Go look back in the early 1900's, back when people hated the piston engine. There were electric cars. They just didn't have the range, and that's going to continue to be the case unless someone finds some new elements that make superbatteries. Plus, I'm not going to plug my damned car in every night.
Tell me; you didn't jump to the tl;dr: part did you? Fuel cells requiring hydrogen will need that hydrogen generated somehow. It's just another form of potential energy storage, or a battery. Running hydrogen gas in a combustion chamber will release large amounts of wasted heat energy. This is the primary culprit for the inefficiency of gas engines. Switching to a combustion type hydrogen car would be no better than gasoline except or the immediate reduction in CO2 emissions which (IMO) are not even important. Hydrogen fuel cells as part of an electric car, on the other hand, might prove to be a valuable battery substitute if they can reign in the price. Nominal battery efficiency is >80%, that's with all factors like impedance and (minor) loss to heat added up. As far as a closed system is concerned, there is no more efficient than batteries and won't be for a long time.

I would like to restate that the ~100-200 mile range on most proposed, or "in-the-works" electric cars would be more than sufficient for most people. Hell, I could even forget to plug it in for a night or two.

Gasoline was the cheaper option in the early 20th century. That is why we have gas cars now. It will not always be the cheaper option.
    
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post #46 of 56
Quote:
Originally Posted by RonindeBeatrice View Post
Tell me; you didn't jump to the tl;dr: part did you? Fuel cells requiring hydrogen will need that hydrogen generated somehow. It's just another form of potential energy storage, or a battery. Running hydrogen gas in a combustion chamber will release large amounts of wasted heat energy. This is the primary culprit for the inefficiency of gas engines. Switching to a combustion type hydrogen car would be no better than gasoline except or the immediate reduction in CO2 emissions which (IMO) are not even important. Hydrogen fuel cells as part of an electric car, on the other hand, might prove to be a valuable battery substitute if they can reign in the price. Nominal battery efficiency is >80%, that's with all factors like impedance and (minor) loss to heat added up. As far as a closed system is concerned, there is no more efficient than batteries and won't be for a long time.

I would like to restate that the ~100-200 mile range on most proposed, or "in-the-works" electric cars would be more than sufficient for most people. Hell, I could even forget to plug it in for a night or two.

Gasoline was the cheaper option in the early 20th century. That is why we have gas cars now. It will not always be the cheaper option.

I read it. I just removed it to make my quote not a mile long, as this one is.


Let's look at it this way.


Place one fuel cell in a gas station, throw some solar panels on it's roof and some collection tanks. People take their 100% normal piston car, minus H2 fuel system, fill up as normal, and drive off. Nothing's differant. Nothing's foreign. No need to redo the infrastructure for repairing cars, making them, prices don't shoot through the wall and safety remains about where it is, and you don't need to retrain the 'tards driving these things. They have enough trouble with something that hasn't changed in 80 years, let's keep it simple. Also, we get to keep that sweet, sweet sound of 8 huge slugs hammering out more torque than anyone knows what to do with


It's also a considerable bit cheaper to build one large fuel cell, bury it under a gas station and power it by solar panels(Using the grid only when the solar panels fail AND the storage tanks are low), than it is to build millions of them.


Need I mention how ugly the affordable electrics are, and how expensive the decent looking ones are? Why would I spend 75,000 dollars for a Tesla roadster when I can buy an H2-fueled Honda S2000 for half that, net ample handling/performance and retain the awesome sound of a proper engine screaming along at insanely high speeds?


Far as I'm concerned, the piston engine isn't going anywhere, and why waste a perfectly tried-and-true tech. No need to reinvent the wheel, here, or even how we turn the wheel.
Edited by TestECull - 12/24/08 at 9:16pm
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post #47 of 56
I have a personal vendetta with the piston engine. Those 2,000 parts itching for an opportunity to wear out. You failed to address the heat loss due to combustion within the car.

If you're after bumhole puckering torque, then your only option is electric.

Observe.

Electrics produce spades more seat pinning torque than combustion engines. Also, because the components can be positioned more flexibly, the center of gravity can be slammed to the road, improving handling characteristics as well.

Performance, efficiency, maintenance, longevity, absolutely nothing touches the electric.

On the subject of price: You can convert virtually any car on the planet into an electric for $20,000 - $30,000 depending on how you wish it to perform.

$30,000 can get you a few hundred foot lbs of torque, 100+ mile range easily.

Regarding the appearance of electric vehicles: There are zero limitations to the design of electric vehicles; they're only as ugly as designers make them. The cars can be formed into any size and shape. Furthermore; there aren't any concessions for an exhaust system or trans axle, so a perfectly aerodynamic shape is more readily obtainable.
Edited by RonindeBeatrice - 12/24/08 at 9:38pm
    
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post #48 of 56
Quote:
Originally Posted by RonindeBeatrice View Post
I have a personal vendetta with the piston engine. Those 2,000 parts itching for an opportunity to wear out. You failed to address the heat loss due to combustion within the car.

If you're after bumhole puckering torque, then your only option is electric.

Observe.

Electrics produce spades more seat pinning torque than combustion engines. Also, because the components can be positioned more flexibly, the center of gravity can be slammed to the road, improving handling characteristics as well.

Performance, efficiency, maintenance, longevity, absolutely nothing touches the electric.

On the subject of price: You can convert virtually any car on the planet into an electric for $20,000 - $30,000 depending on how you wish it to perform.

$30,000 can get you a few hundred foot lbs of torque, 100+ mile range easily.

Regarding the appearance of electric vehicles: There are zero limitations to the design of electric vehicles; they're only as ugly as designers make them. The cars can be formed into any size and shape. Furthermore; there aren't any concessions for an exhaust system or trans axle, so a perfectly aerodynamic shape is more readily obtainable.

Oook.....A well designed, well maintained piston engine will last as long as any well-designed well-maintained electric motor.


Also, an H2 conversion kit for a carberetted V8 would run between 1200 and 1500. That's a ton better than 20,000-30,000 for an electric conversion. Dunno what your wallet says, mine prefers converting the pistons to H2. For a fuel injected engine, you'll have to add 50-100 for an ECU remap. What this includes is the throttle body, the injector mounted in the throttle body, the labor to install, the H2 fuel cell in the back, the piping needed to run the H2 to the engine.


Plus, you just don't get the sound. Electrics are too damned quiet.


As far as heat loss.....It's not loss if you use that heat to do something. Most cars these days use it to warm you up in the winter. Dunno about yours. You lose more power through drivetrain inefficiencies than you do heat anyways, so unless you are pulling some four-corner wheelmotors out of your pocket, don't even go down that road. A single electric motor mounted where the piston engine goes is still victim to the power sapping of the transmission and differentials it has to turn to get the power to the wheels in the first place.
Edited by TestECull - 12/24/08 at 9:57pm
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post #49 of 56
But there aren't any hydrogen service stations... With an EV the gas station is as close as the nearest extension cord. I do not agree that you lose more to drive train than heat. An electric can drive a rear differential directly, so no need for a transmission.

This popped up as the first google.

It's not only the engine in an ICE that gives out. Transmissions and brakes account for a huge part of repairs. An ev doesn't need a tranny at all, and most braking will not come from mechanical brakes.
Edited by RonindeBeatrice - 12/24/08 at 10:06pm
    
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post #50 of 56
The engine is just that, the engine. It isn't the whole car. You can't be pinning normal wear of non-engine parts on the engine, dude.


Ontop of that, brake pads are normal wear items anyways.


Also, ever heard of engine braking? Does the same thing as regen in a hybrid/full electric, uses the engine to slow instead of the brakes.
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