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The Truth about Temperatures and Voltages - Page 14

post #131 of 599
Quote:
Originally Posted by blkrnbw View Post
Everest gets their max wattage from watts law. take high end of the voltage (1.3) and max Amp draw to CPU (regulated by board) 100Amp and multiply them

100Amp X 1.3 = 130watt

This of course is killed when you overclock or go out of that range. Even though we know the processor can take far more they keep their numbers down with Intels volt specs.

Brian

Now that did not make sense, maybe I should have read what everest had before running my mouth. That matches up with typical power. But the max v on 9650 (according to Intel is 1.3625v so it should be 136.25 (keeping within Intel epec). Ok so the max watt is maybe them guessing? Its not what Intel says, and its not what everyone who has ever tried 1.5v and survived says, wild guess maybe?
But 1.3625V is the maximum VID, not the maximum voltage. The maximum voltage for 45nm Core2s is approximately 1.45V, and it's 1.55V for 65nm Core2s. The VID is the voltage that the CPU will request when it is set to Auto. Therefore, 1.3625V is the highest voltage the CPU will request from the motherboard when the voltage set to Auto. So, this is another reason for not using Auto.
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post #132 of 599
Vid is the range I gave was for the Q9650 .085 - 1.3625, although default power up voltage is 1.10v (but that doesnt really matter). The Absolute maximum for the Q9650 is 1.45v.
Was just reading some things on loadlines in respect to CPU volts. based off of VID there is a decrease in voltage as Amps raise (forgive me if this is something everyone already knows). This is not vdroop but is part of the ATX 11 spec. I am not sure how this affects Vcc when you manually set, i woudl think it would still decrease it based off of VID. Not sure if it is bypassable or not (yet) but initial reading does not look like it. It sounds like vdroop but that is more capacitor design and quality, not PSU or v regulator driven.

Brian
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post #133 of 599
Quote:
Originally Posted by blkrnbw View Post
Vid is the range I gave was for the Q9650 .085 - 1.3625, although default power up voltage is 1.10v (but that doesnt really matter). The Absolute maximum for the Q9650 is 1.45v.
Was just reading some things on loadlines in respect to CPU volts. based off of VID there is a decrease in voltage as Amps raise (forgive me if this is something everyone already knows). This is not vdroop but is part of the ATX 11 spec. I am not sure how this affects Vcc when you manually set, i woudl think it would still decrease it based off of VID. Not sure if it is bypassable or not (yet) but initial reading does not look like it. It sounds like vdroop but that is more capacitor design and quality, not PSU or v regulator driven.

Brian
Oh yeah, I'm well aware of the Core2 45nm VID Voltage Range and the 45nm Core2 maximum voltage, but I didn't know what you described here. Actually, I don't even understand it.
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post #134 of 599
I didnt even know about it till last night, kept reading alot of mentions of the ATX 11 PSU standards and decided to see what they were. There are alot of charts on loadline levels. Here is a quick blurb from one from one of them (do self a favor and do not attempt to read this in the early AM hours, most does not get retained after you post something).

loadline for 775_VR_config_04b,05A and 05B (this relates back to some processor family power needs)

20A -0.024v max -0.043v typical -0.062v min
60A -0.072v max -0.091v typical -0.110v min
120A -0.144v max -0,168v typical -0.182v min

at first I read this as a max variation within a certain Amp range. And if they just had min and max I can see that as possible still. The typical is what confised me. Anyway maybe I read it wrong or didnt read enough or just got lost. Here is the link if you want to check it out.
http://www.intel.com/Assets/PDF/designguide/313214.pdf

So many of these specs can be interpreted so many different ways. Unless of couse you have a Phd in electrical engineering and can actually understand it all.

I actually believe this is done to keep components along the power path from overheating. That is mentioned farther through the spec but does make sense, especially when dealing with 6 (or more) layers boards.
Edited by blkrnbw - 8/16/09 at 8:49pm
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post #135 of 599
Should i set my TJ-Max to 90 for my CPU?
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post #136 of 599
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by BradleyW View Post
Should i set my TJ-Max to 90 for my CPU?
Short Answe: Yes.

Long Answer: Yes, it gives the best estimation of load temps.

Longer Answer: Since Intel sets each CPU's TJ Max individually, your TJ Max can't be guaranteed to be 90C, but 90C is the TJ Max Target which means this is what they were aiming for and it should be right on or within a few degrees.

Quote:
Originally Posted by blkrnbw View Post
I didnt even know about it till last night, kept reading alot of mentions of the ATX 11 PSU standards and decided to see what they were. There are alot of charts on loadline levels. Here is a quick blurb from one from one of them (do self a favor and do not attempt to read this in the early AM hours, most does not get retained after you post something).

loadline for 775_VR_config_04b,05A and 05B (this relates back to some processor family power needs)

20A -0.024v max -0.043v typical -0.062v min
60A -0.072v max -0.091v typical -0.110v min
120A -0.144v max -0,168v typical -0.182v min

at first I read this as a max variation within a certain Amp range. And if they just had min and max I can see that as possible still. The typical is what confised me. Anyway maybe I read it wrong or didnt read enough or just got lost. Here is the link if you want to check it out.
http://www.intel.com/Assets/PDF/designguide/313214.pdf

So many of these specs can be interpreted so many different ways. Unless of couse you have a Phd in electrical engineering and can actually understand it all.

I actually believe this is done to keep components along the power path from overheating. That is mentioned farther through the spec but does make sense, especially when dealing with 6 (or more) layers boards.
I've been reading through this over and over and I can't seem to make sense of it yet. Even the numbers don't make sense like "Typical use 0.168v at 120amps." When do we ever use 0.0168v? I almost think this is referring to something else, but I'm not sure what. I'll keep reading it and see if I can't some resemblance of sense out of it.
Edited by ChickenInferno - 8/18/09 at 4:29pm
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post #137 of 599
I've been reading through this over and over and I can't seem to make sense of it yet. Even the numbers don't make sense like "Typical use 0.168v at 120amps." When do we ever use 0.0168v? I almost think this is referring to something else, but I'm not sure what. I'll keep reading it and see if I can't some resemblance of sense out of it.[/QUOTE]


I think they meant that is the 0.0168v is the typical drop in v when at 120Amp . Even though my Q6600 is max Icc (Amp) 100 so I will never get that high, which is why I think they designed this. Any LGA775 MB will have to be able to handle that entire socket family of CPU's. Some may (not sure) be able to go up to 120-140Amp range. So even if my CPU is asking for 100Amp with normal design spec there is a tolerance range where they can be a liittke above or below that. I am thinking the drop in voltage is to compensate? (not sure hence the ?). The other thought I have is since the CPU has to be able to shut down in a thermtrip state at normal voltage with higher amps it may not be able to safely do so, one way to make sure they can is drop the voltage down as the amps go up to keep the danger down/ (again more of a ?). I am waiting on a call back from a electrical engineer I know that may be able to shed some light on this. If he can will definately throw the info out there.
When I first read this I though Vdroop. but vdroop was in that doc or another on the same subjkect I read(I think) and this was a different area.

Brian

note to all. When researching something like this I tend to get a little more into it than most and dont quit until I have a semi understanding of what is going on. In the event I need to shut the F^&% up just tell me.
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post #138 of 599
By asking questions, we learn more. Great info here.
    
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post #139 of 599
Thread Starter 
See when I see the charts starting on page 83, I see that ICCmax has a range from 75-120amps depending on which CPU configuration you have. It never states which CPUs have which configuration though.

The idea of a built in vdroop at 120amps is possible and this may be what motherboard manufactors are engineering against with LLC and Vdroop control.

The THERMTRIP# I don't believe has anything to do with voltage or current. It seems to be a certain Dist to TJ Max number activated. I think you could probablly set it off by simply idling (low voltage/low current) without a heatsink.

My other thought after reading the pdf again was that the -0.0168v may the effect against CPU comanded voltage (not what we command in the bios) and the actual voltage the CPU gets whereas the loadline calibration signals (not the same as LLC/vdroop control) are actually a way to make sure that vcore (vcc) never falls below or goes above a certain limit aka a way to keep the signal close to constant. (See Page 23)...or I may be completely off.
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post #140 of 599
The actual CPU Amp draw is in the design spec white papers on Intels site. and I wish I could say if you were off that way I would know. If it was for keeping power it would be a + or - I would think.
Thermtrip is when the CPU hits its max temp period and goes shutdown. prochot is the one tjmax goes down to (or did I reverse those), either way one is right. If a CPU is running high load and amps are up if there is a complete cooling failure and the CPU shuts down it would be less volts to deal with at that time.

1.4v @ 120Amp is 168 watts without load line
1.218 @ 120Amp is 146watt using max load line number for that Amp

with the increased Amperage I would not think there would be a performance issue when under load, not getting the bulk it may want but is getting alot of it. It does yeild a 13% watt decrease at max load, if it was running hot and had to shut down that could be a significant help, whether that is why they designed it that way or not who the hell knows. Eventually I will get an answer.
I may have gotten one but I am dead tired and cannot get thoughts out right now so going to sleep, will post in Am when it becomes cleared.

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