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The Truth about Temperatures and Voltages - Page 19

post #181 of 599
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blkrnbw View Post
OK, my thoery about temperature and power consumption is false. Increase in temperature does lower the chip's efficiency, but does not bare a wieght on power consumption like I thoerized. Saw this on a review at Tom's hardware "P=C·V²·f". Power= Capacitance*Voltage²*Frequency. No where in that equation is temperature mentioned.

Some nice info here.


Temperature is a byproduct of power. Or is it a byproduct of inefficient power use? Just like power supplies have an efficiency rating, the power not used is converted to heat. (side question.... will a 100% efficient power supply give off no heat? (personal answer is no but lets not debate this one)). Pizza the theory is just backwards, increased power = increased temperature. This is true in almost all electronics, and most mechanical devices as well. Run a car at higher RPM's and it runs hotter, fans run hotter when at a higher speed setting than lower, CPU is the same more power = more heat. I think your thought process got reversed is all. It all makes perfect sense (when reversed).

In other news I have gotten no word back from Intel on their ATX Amp and if it is dynamic or not (go figure). May end up hooking a voltmeter to the 12v leads on the main 24 pin power connector and watch it there. There are also those Amp meters that you put the hot wire in the loop and it reads amps off that wire. May isolate that one and try that method also. Kind of worries me jamming a Amp meter into my 24 pin power, the loop method is less intrusive.

Brian
The place where temperature seemed to come into place was that P=C·V²·f=I²·R and that an increase in temperature can cause an increase in resistivity and due to this increased resistance inorder to achieve the same power, the current would have to be significantly increased. -- It's an interesting theory when put like that, but I think there are probablly more variables than I could ever imagine.

As for the temperature being a byproduct question: Heat is released due to the inefficency in an electrical system. However, in heating units like space heaters the inefficency is actually what electricity is not convereted into heat.


Quote:
Originally Posted by grishkathefool View Post
all the time I spent looking for information about temps and it was right here all along. Too bad I didn't find it months ago.

Nice Guide, Chicken. TY
I'm glad you found it useful.
Edited by ChickenInferno - 8/29/09 at 8:53pm
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post #182 of 599
Quote:
Originally Posted by FSF-Foxhound View Post
You should change the title to "the facts" instead of the truth..
But saying that it's the truth shows that this exposes lies helps people have a more perfect knowledge about this stuff. If it's just called "the facts", then it can seem boring and not very interesting.
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post #183 of 599
Quote:
Originally Posted by blkrnbw View Post

Temperature is a byproduct of power. Or is it a byproduct of inefficient power use? Just like power supplies have an efficiency rating, the power not used is converted to heat. (side question.... will a 100% efficient power supply give off no heat? (personal answer is no but lets not debate this one)). Pizza the theory is just backwards, increased power = increased temperature. This is true in almost all electronics, and most mechanical devices as well. Run a car at higher RPM's and it runs hotter, fans run hotter when at a higher speed setting than lower, CPU is the same more power = more heat. I think your thought process got reversed is all. It all makes perfect sense (when reversed).

In other news I have gotten no word back from Intel on their ATX Amp and if it is dynamic or not (go figure). May end up hooking a voltmeter to the 12v leads on the main 24 pin power connector and watch it there. There are also those Amp meters that you put the hot wire in the loop and it reads amps off that wire. May isolate that one and try that method also. Kind of worries me jamming a Amp meter into my 24 pin power, the loop method is less intrusive.

Brian
No no. I agree with you 100%.
Quote:
Originally Posted by PizzaMan View Post
OK, my theory about temperature and power consumption is false. Increase in temperature does lower the chip's efficiency, but does not bare a weight on power consumption like I theorized. Saw this on a review at Tom's hardware "P=C·V²·f". Power= Capacitance*Voltage²*Frequency. No where in that equation is temperature mentioned.
Quote:
Originally Posted by PizzaMan View Post
So temperatures have an effect on capacitance in P=C·V²·f.
A CPU will continue to use more power as the voltage and frequency variables are increased. Capacitance is the amperage and power signal feeding energy. Its efficacy can be altered on temperatures.

The more you pump the volts and freq the more wattage will be used/released. Temps can only slightly reduce wattage. I found a review on Tom's (can't the link ATM) that showed a P4 OC'd to 4.0Ghz and used ~200w. As the board and chip heated up the P4 started to use like ~220w.


Quote:
Originally Posted by ChickenInferno View Post
The place where temperature seemed to come into place was that P=C·V²·f=I²·R and that an increase in temperature can cause an increase in resistivity and due to this increased resistance inorder to achieve the same power, the current would have to be significantly increased. -- It's an interesting theory when put like that, but I think there are probablly more variables than I could ever imagine.
I was trying to figure out where you got I²·R. Googled and this cool page: http://www.sengpielaudio.com/calculator-ohm.htm
The Formula wheel. Never took any electrical classes and this has been a great learning adventure for me.

So, Temps effect capacitance. Temps also effect resistance. So temps effect the power usage of the chip. Thus when OCing we lower temps to get the chip to run more efficiently to OC more.

+rep to you guys. we've really been able to hit some good stuff here. well worth the sticky
    
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post #184 of 599
I'm glad others are getting some knowledge out of all this.

I think I have the Icc figured out also. Along with CPU VID reporting on boot up there is also a Amp start/and end. Then what they call a dynamic cuurent step, which is end - start in every example I have seen. This is leading me to believe that Icc is fixed. found this is the voltage Regulator design guide. (I haven't rea this much tech stuff since....... ok I havent ever.)

http://www.intel.com/Assets/PDF/designguide/302356.pdf
page 20 is the part I was refering to.
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post #185 of 599
Cool, Just 1 question, whats the TJ max of A Q9400?
    
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post #186 of 599
Quote:
Originally Posted by PizzaMan View Post
No no. I agree with you 100%.




A CPU will continue to use more power as the voltage and frequency variables are increased. Capacitance is the amperage and power signal feeding energy. Its efficacy can be altered on temperatures.

The more you pump the volts and freq the more wattage will be used/released. Temps can only slightly reduce wattage. I found a review on Tom's (can't the link ATM) that showed a P4 OC'd to 4.0Ghz and used ~200w. As the board and chip heated up the P4 started to use like ~220w.




I was trying to figure out where you got I²·R. Googled and this cool page: http://www.sengpielaudio.com/calculator-ohm.htm
The Formula wheel. Never took any electrical classes and this has been a great learning adventure for me.

So, Temps effect capacitance. Temps also effect resistance. So temps effect the power usage of the chip. Thus when OCing we lower temps to get the chip to run more efficiently to OC more.

+rep to you guys. we've really been able to hit some good stuff here. well worth the sticky
Yep, resistance (Ohms) is dictated by the diameter of the conductor (wire), the length of the "wire", and the ambient temperature as well.

I assume you are referring to Ohm's law (the actual dude named Ohm); it is essential to at least understand the general relationship between voltage, amperage (current), and resistance (Ohms).
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post #187 of 599
Quote:
Originally Posted by freddy-b View Post
Cool, Just 1 question, whats the TJ max of A Q9400?
Like most 45nm Core2s, the Tj. Max for the Q9400 is approximately 100°C.
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post #188 of 599
So my 60c loads are now 50c from reading this thread and setting my TJmax from 100 to 90.
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post #189 of 599
Thread Starter 
On watercooling I wouldn't doubt that with you probablly only using about 1.4v, but remember that even at 50C the uncertainty is about +/-10.
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post #190 of 599
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChickenInferno View Post
On watercooling I wouldn't doubt that with you probablly only using about 1.4v, but remember that even at 50C the uncertainty is about +/-10.
Lets say that although 50c is indicated, it is actually 45c...when 50c is shown, does this mean it will always be consistent and repeatable as far as the actual error? Or does that actual temperature fluctuate within the margin of error?

Which do you think it tends toward, consistent error for a given sensor, or fluctuating within the margin of error?
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